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that whenever you grant perspective you

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grant power we've buried our heads so

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deeply you know we're sort of all we're

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all playing our own little mini games we

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like to organize the world into these

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simplified little systems of elements

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and simple rules and we sort of organize

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these mini-games of life and then you

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know we try to win them

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[Music]

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today's episode is about Free Will is

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there even a theory of everything and

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the physics of idealism that is the

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notion that Consciousness is fundamental

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and only we also touch on

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interpretations of quantum mechanics

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where the Observer has a privileged role

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in creating the universe Matt O'Dowd is

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a science communicator and an

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astrophysicist a professor at the City

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University of New York involved in

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gravitationally lensed quasars which

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touch on the crisis in cosmology which

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is something that we'll speak about in

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this episode and for sure in the next

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one at length Matt is also the host of

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PBS space-time which has over 2 million

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subscribers I think it's 2.8 and they're

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the largest physics and space show on

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YouTube and in case you're wondering who

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I am my name is Kurt J mungle I have a

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background in mathematical physics and

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this channel is theories of everything

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which is dedicated to the theoretical

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physics Endeavor of understanding

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gravity and Quantum field Theory but as

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well as we investigate Consciousness and

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the fundamental role it may have if

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you're watching this you'll see that I'm

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in a new location and all of this I

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can't wait to tell you more about in A

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Day in the Life episode we're filming a

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day in the life and you can expect to

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see that in the next couple of weeks you

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can also expect many changes behind here

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many different angles we're still

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setting it up you can also expect three

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sponsors in today's episode that is

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rocket money Henson and expressvpn again

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that'll be around the 20 minute Mark and

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then another one at the 40 minute Mark

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just telling you here as I like to know

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what the sponsors are before I watch a

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video and also when they are for full

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transparency and also to set

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expectations if you're interested in

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hearing more podcasts like this then do

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consider going to patreon.com

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or you can go to

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theoriesofeverything.org and supporting

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with the contribution of whatever you

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like as the only reason that I'm able to

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do this full time is because of the

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patrons so the supporters like yourself

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as well as the sponsors thank you so

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much and enjoy this episode with Matt

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O'Dowd

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Matt

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I've been watching you for years so this

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is

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honor man it's good to speak with you

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well it's my pleasure I've been watching

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you for months right right

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and really enjoyed the stuff dude thank

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you thank you okay so I want to talk

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about PBS space time which is what I

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know you from but that's not all you do

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it's not your full-time job

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so

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firstly let's get people who are

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unacquainted with you acquainted so what

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is PBS space time and how did you get

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involved

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okay so PBS space time it's a YouTube

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show

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Studios uh we do near weekly episodes a

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few times a month

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um and we explore

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a huge range of Topics by now because

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we've been doing it for seven years uh

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and we've gone pretty deep in

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you know topics of space and time uh and

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you know so physics astronomy

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astrophysics uh but this encompasses

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encompasses a huge amount of stuff of

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course

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um is it physics is enormous but we tend

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to explore topics in

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you know cosmology and quantum mechanics

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and you know as as mind bendy as we can

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with

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the Proviso that we are strictly

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scientifically rigorous right which

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makes it much different than

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the content that at least used to be out

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on YouTube and television which was much

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more watered down and mystifying playing

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up the aspect of the wave and the

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particle and pretty much just staying at

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that and saying there could be extra

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Dimensions without showing many if any

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equations

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yeah I mean and we actually don't show

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Too Many equations but we do show some I

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think our

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philosophy is more that

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um you know people have been consuming

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science media for many decades now you

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know uh since

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since before Carl Sagan's Cosmos and

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um it's like people have been in school

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for five decades and we decided that

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some wanted to graduate

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um to stretch an analogy but we you know

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we have the philosophy that our audience

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is smart people are smart and and you

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know the only difference is that they

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didn't make poor decisions about staying

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in University for way too long and so

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that the same level of specialized

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knowledge but they do have

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good brains uh and and perhaps more to

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the point they have fantastic

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[\h__\h] detectors and so they're very

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highly tuned to when you know when

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they're being talked down to right so

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that's what we wanted to do we wanted to

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um bring maybe a peek behind the curtain

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of how you know the the particular

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sciences that we love the most actually

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happen and what some of the very poppy

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results that you see in in the media

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actually mean and uh yeah we talked

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before this and we realize we have

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several commonalities so one is we both

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research physics the next is we distill

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that physics or that research down to

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something that's consumable while

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correctly portraying the phenomenon so

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that is not being patronizing about it

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and then number three is filmmaking so

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why don't you tell the audience and

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myself about this film and why it's

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important to you

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sure okay so

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um

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so I you know I

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to in answering this question to also

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partially answer your last question

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which I missed um

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I didn't start out planning to make film

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when I was a kid I wondered a lot of

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weird stuff where did the world come

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from what happened before the Universe I

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still have the same questions I had as a

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kid this documentary will lay out our

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best modern understanding of what the

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universe really is I

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um you know I started out as an

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astrophysics researcher I'm a professor

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at City University of New York

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um you know I teach physics I

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do physics I have a research program in

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astrophysics but

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um

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around seven years ago I

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um

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well I have a friend so my friend uh

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Gabe Perez is a New York cosmologist at

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the time

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was doing this little show with PBS

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called space time

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um he did several really out of this

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world episodes but

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had decided to move on and so there was

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a bit of a scramble in the New York

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astrophysics Community because we'd all

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grown up on Carl Sagan uh and you know

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we all had this little desire to

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um you know not feel the issues but we

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saw the importance of the mission you

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know there's no point learning how big

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the universe is if you don't tell anyone

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about it and so so it tends to be you

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know a a pattern among particularly

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among people in Astro that we like to

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talk about this stuff so

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so I jumped in

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um and for whatever ridiculous reasons I

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ended up

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um stepping into Gabe's shoes and that

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was seven years and what do you mean

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that there's no point in learning about

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it if you don't talk about it oh so I

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uh you know a bunch of

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Ivory Tower academics knowing how

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amazing the universe is and you know

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talking to each other about it but never

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never you know sort of let's say

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leveling up humanities

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Collective reality in that way it's it

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is it is a more beautiful thing it's

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objectively more beautiful if more

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people

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um have a more expansive understanding

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of of the crazy universe that they live

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in um you know particularly in

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astrophysics we're not we don't produce

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a lot of Industry value you know we

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don't make a lot of the new useful Nano

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materials for example and so the the

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primary use of

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the field is perspective

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okay so the story of my life so I was no

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right uh so so we we really dug into

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um to space-time and it was

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successful beyond what we imagined could

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be could be possible and you know really

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what had happened is that we'd you know

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maybe let's say we can credit ourselves

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with a little intuition here but I think

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there was also some luck that we tapped

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into a very hungry market for

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um for much more authentic science

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journalism

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um and so you know we

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um I mean you know you you need to go

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and look at our uh

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our video library on YouTube and there's

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a lot yeah there will be an overlay

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right now for the audience and I highly

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recommend you subscribe to PBS space

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time uh but it also

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you know over that time

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um took the little little spark of

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passion that I had for science

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communication which had previously been

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expressed you know doing public talks

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and you know doing observing nights uh

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for the public and things like that and

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I realized that wow there's really

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something big that can be done

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um

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and so

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um

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so this film uh it's actually

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not a PBS production it's a production

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with my PBS team as well as my partner

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bahara golipur who is a science

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journalist uh specializing in

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neuroscience and AI

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and um so this is what this is this is

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our Collective Mission but in a way it's

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the culmination of our

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our efforts

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and

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um so

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I mean I can tell you a little bit about

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the film

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um yeah I would love to hear so uh so

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the idea I mean the film is called

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inventing reality and the idea is

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you know it as I said it's a synthesis

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um not just of what we've learned but um

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it's an attempt to sort of

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put it together step back take stock and

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look for pass forward so so maybe a

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simple way to say it is that it's a

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movie about Humanity's search for what

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is fundamental

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00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:43,380
um and of course there are many ways

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that we seek truth but the focus of this

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film is the pursuit of the most

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fundamental levels of reality through

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particularly physics but also science in

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general

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um

288
00:12:01,130 --> 00:11:59,100
and okay so you know it's about the

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00:12:03,650 --> 00:12:01,140
question what is reality but it's also

290
00:12:07,130 --> 00:12:03,660
about the meta questions

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um so digging into the potential answers

292
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:09,600
to the question itself but also to

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question that question

294
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:12,720
so

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um

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physics is

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insanely successful almost unbelievably

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successful in its predictive power about

299
00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:25,140
nature but uh there's there's a sense

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and I think a growing sense that physics

301
00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:30,540
has stalled in I think what some once

302
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thought was this final Sprint to a

303
00:12:38,990 --> 00:12:36,000
theory of everything you know to to

304
00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:39,000
neatly tie up reality in a bow have this

305
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:40,940
final equation that described everything

306
00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:44,399
uh and so uh so now many physicists are

307
00:12:50,329 --> 00:12:46,860
asking how do we approach the question

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00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:50,339
differently and not just physicists a

309
00:12:54,889 --> 00:12:52,260
lot of the thinking is Reaching Across

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00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:54,899
into other disciplines drawing on other

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00:12:58,910 --> 00:12:57,120
disciplines okay can you give an example

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00:13:01,970 --> 00:12:58,920
of that because you said you would like

313
00:13:04,009 --> 00:13:01,980
to investigate fundamental reality from

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00:13:06,889 --> 00:13:04,019
not just a physics perspective but a

315
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:06,899
science perspective in general what

316
00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:09,360
would that look like if not physics

317
00:13:17,870 --> 00:13:14,220
great question so so I guess um

318
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:17,880
there's a lot many ways to uh answer

319
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:19,440
that but

320
00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:23,279
let's just use one so uh

321
00:13:29,329 --> 00:13:25,980
quantum mechanics is

322
00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:29,339
weird beyond comprehension in a very

323
00:13:35,870 --> 00:13:31,740
literal sense we still don't get it

324
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:35,880
um but it's clear that there is a

325
00:13:41,629 --> 00:13:38,459
an uncanny and fundamental Link Between

326
00:13:43,550 --> 00:13:41,639
The Observer and the nature of the

327
00:13:44,449 --> 00:13:43,560
observed the so-called measurement

328
00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:44,459
problem

329
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:46,380
and this is a

330
00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:49,560
an unresolved uh

331
00:13:55,449 --> 00:13:52,620
um conundrum that was sort of swept

332
00:13:59,530 --> 00:13:55,459
under the rug you know back in the 1920s

333
00:14:02,090 --> 00:13:59,540
uh when we realized that there was

334
00:14:03,550 --> 00:14:02,100
some kind of

335
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:03,560
in between

336
00:14:09,650 --> 00:14:06,720
observations there there is there's a

337
00:14:11,329 --> 00:14:09,660
level of indeterminacy to Nature in

338
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:11,339
which nature

339
00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:14,220
appears to occupy multiple States at

340
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:16,860
once or no State and it's only defined

341
00:14:22,730 --> 00:14:20,160
on observation and all of this all this

342
00:14:25,449 --> 00:14:22,740
beautiful weird stuff and

343
00:14:28,250 --> 00:14:25,459
um there there was a lot of debate about

344
00:14:31,190 --> 00:14:28,260
you know basically swing between a type

345
00:14:33,949 --> 00:14:31,200
of idealism and a type of realism

346
00:14:35,690 --> 00:14:33,959
um questioning the reality of reality

347
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:35,700
um and how fundamental The Observer is

348
00:14:40,449 --> 00:14:38,399
but this was pushed aside uh because

349
00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:40,459
quantum mechanics was

350
00:14:46,009 --> 00:14:43,380
incredibly successful at predicting the

351
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:46,019
behavior of the universe and so you know

352
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:48,720
the old added shut up and calculate uh

353
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:51,360
really drove the the philosophy of how

354
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:53,519
quantum mechanics evolved um

355
00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:56,940
in that we just used it we we used it to

356
00:15:00,889 --> 00:14:59,399
make amazing predictions I think it's

357
00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:00,899
reasonable to say we used quantum

358
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,180
mechanics to build our modern world you

359
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:05,760
know transition calculate mindset is

360
00:15:13,610 --> 00:15:11,040
what it is yeah yeah it is so it so

361
00:15:15,889 --> 00:15:13,620
for quite some time it was

362
00:15:17,810 --> 00:15:15,899
considered career suicide for an

363
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:17,820
academic to ask questions like but what

364
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:20,880
does quantum mechanics actually mean

365
00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:23,040
um what is happening between

366
00:15:28,430 --> 00:15:25,740
measurements for example sort of the the

367
00:15:31,129 --> 00:15:28,440
what we call the interpretation of

368
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:31,139
quantum mechanics so the equations work

369
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,600
you know the Schrodinger equation or the

370
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:35,519
equations of quantum field Theory they

371
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,399
work incredibly well but asking the

372
00:15:41,930 --> 00:15:40,320
question what do these equations mean

373
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:41,940
what is the

374
00:15:46,490 --> 00:15:44,220
physical story that they

375
00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:46,500
are the world

376
00:15:50,509 --> 00:15:47,940
I'm not sure if you've seen the

377
00:15:52,009 --> 00:15:50,519
interview on toll with Tim Maudlin I

378
00:15:53,389 --> 00:15:52,019
have not seen that one yet okay well he

379
00:15:55,069 --> 00:15:53,399
would say so he's a philosopher of

380
00:15:57,230 --> 00:15:55,079
physics and he would say quantum theory

381
00:16:00,050 --> 00:15:57,240
they don't teach you quantum theory they

382
00:16:01,370 --> 00:16:00,060
teach you a method of calculating and a

383
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:01,380
true theory should give you an account

384
00:16:05,870 --> 00:16:03,660
of ontology so a true theory is a

385
00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:05,880
combination of math and metaphysics or

386
00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:07,980
at least like a supposed account of the

387
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:10,500
metaphysics and he said that's what most

388
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:12,360
interested him in physics and they would

389
00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:13,680
talk about that on the first lecture

390
00:16:17,870 --> 00:16:16,139
just to get you involved and then after

391
00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:17,880
that it's calculating greens functions

392
00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:20,220
yeah and he said I'm not terribly

393
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:21,480
interested in that I want to know what

394
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:24,480
is going on yeah and he said now if you

395
00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:26,100
ask a physics Professor what is going on

396
00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:27,660
they say go to the philosophy Department

397
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,639
that's not for here yeah they said

398
00:16:34,009 --> 00:16:31,680
that's not how it's been historically

399
00:16:35,689 --> 00:16:34,019
for all of physics even though physics

400
00:16:37,610 --> 00:16:35,699
wasn't coined until fairly recently but

401
00:16:40,310 --> 00:16:37,620
for since even Newton wanted to know

402
00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:40,320
what the heck is going on and Houston

403
00:16:47,329 --> 00:16:43,320
acknowledged that he didn't know what

404
00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:47,339
his so-called theory of gravity meant it

405
00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:51,060
it it he acknowledged that it was not

406
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:52,920
pontological in any way it was

407
00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:55,199
descriptive and in the in the same way

408
00:17:00,350 --> 00:16:57,240
as

409
00:17:02,509 --> 00:17:00,360
um you know is Newton's law of universal

410
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,519
gravitation is descriptive of gravity it

411
00:17:07,309 --> 00:17:04,799
doesn't explain why gravity happens

412
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:07,319
quantum mechanics is descriptive of the

413
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:08,880
behavior of subatomic particles but

414
00:17:14,929 --> 00:17:12,660
doesn't explain the why internet privacy

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is a growing concern as we mostly live

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our lives online however there are many

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ways that we can be attacked or

418
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monitored I personally don't go online

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doing what's sensitive without

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attempting to use a VPN the reason being

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that many internet service providers can

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I've almost never had a problem with

479
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:40,980
superposition because I see the math as

480
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:43,200
a description and then it's only an

481
00:19:46,490 --> 00:19:45,000
issue if you try and make some

482
00:19:48,169 --> 00:19:46,500
correspondence between a map and say

483
00:19:49,549 --> 00:19:48,179
what the heck is going on so some people

484
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,559
would say yeah but it's not as simple as

485
00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:51,600
if you have two goals so two plus two

486
00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:53,640
goats equals four goats that I

487
00:19:58,669 --> 00:19:56,220
understand however even there

488
00:20:02,510 --> 00:19:58,679
two plus two equals four but two plus

489
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:02,520
two also equals five plus minus one

490
00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:05,280
just as easily and so you can say well

491
00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:07,380
what the heck is five goats and then a

492
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,480
minus one goat does it live in a

493
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:11,760
superposition of five and a minus one so

494
00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:13,140
unless you have a problem with even

495
00:20:17,570 --> 00:20:16,020
ordinary addition then to me I don't

496
00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:17,580
have a problem with superposition I just

497
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,620
see it as okay this is a description so

498
00:20:22,850 --> 00:20:21,600
what do you think about that what do you

499
00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:22,860
make of that I think it's a great

500
00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:23,880
example

501
00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:26,460
um and it and and it conveniently gets

502
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:27,900
to the point that I was rounding on

503
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:32,640
anyway uh which is that we have

504
00:20:37,310 --> 00:20:35,280
and intuition about mathematics we have

505
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:37,320
our own inbuilt math engine in our

506
00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:38,520
brains

507
00:20:43,970 --> 00:20:41,880
um and it it's you know we know that

508
00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:43,980
that our intuitions about math do not

509
00:20:48,529 --> 00:20:45,900
Encompass all math for example we don't

510
00:20:49,850 --> 00:20:48,539
have an intuition about imaginary

511
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:49,860
numbers

512
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,720
serviceable mathematical tools and in in

513
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:57,600
you know in a sense there

514
00:21:02,029 --> 00:20:59,280
you're real in that they're important

515
00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:02,039
for understanding quantum mechanics but

516
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:11,270
the worlds that we describe the the

517
00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:14,100
worlds that you know out the our

518
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:15,660
subjective World which is a model and

519
00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:18,600
our scientific models

520
00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:20,580
um uh

521
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:23,340
so heavily influenced by what we

522
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:26,880
intuitively think is possible but we

523
00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:28,500
don't we shouldn't necessarily trust

524
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:31,860
what we think is possible based on

525
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:34,140
you know the the the math and physics

526
00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:36,419
engine that Evolution gave us

527
00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:38,220
um and so this is one

528
00:21:44,029 --> 00:21:41,340
uh interdisciplinary area we need to

529
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:44,039
maybe talk to neuroscientists and you

530
00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:46,559
know people who are uh to cognitive

531
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:49,320
scientists and and and and even people

532
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:52,559
who are working in AI to understand what

533
00:21:59,029 --> 00:21:56,640
some of the biases might be in how

534
00:22:01,310 --> 00:21:59,039
a neural network like our own constructs

535
00:22:03,470 --> 00:22:01,320
its reality so that's what you meant

536
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:03,480
when you said there is physics to

537
00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:05,280
understand fundamental reality but if we

538
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:06,780
also want to understand what do we mean

539
00:22:10,909 --> 00:22:09,000
when we say fundamental reality we can

540
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:10,919
use tools of Neuroscience to understand

541
00:22:16,250 --> 00:22:13,260
our own biases well that's so that

542
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:16,260
aspect of understanding ourselves is

543
00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:17,880
important what are our biases but also

544
00:22:23,870 --> 00:22:20,940
if we want to approach

545
00:22:26,750 --> 00:22:23,880
things like the the measurement problem

546
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:26,760
I think you know maybe

547
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:28,799
understanding how we construct our

548
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:30,960
subjective reality won't get us there

549
00:22:38,330 --> 00:22:34,140
maybe it'll be helpful but

550
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:38,340
there are I I feel like there are

551
00:22:42,529 --> 00:22:39,360
um

552
00:22:43,549 --> 00:22:42,539
areas in for example

553
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:43,559
well

554
00:22:48,409 --> 00:22:46,559
statistics probability Theory I mean you

555
00:22:52,510 --> 00:22:48,419
know these things physicists are pretty

556
00:22:55,250 --> 00:22:52,520
quick to to draw on for example various

557
00:22:59,330 --> 00:22:55,260
Bayesian interpretations of quantum

558
00:23:00,890 --> 00:22:59,340
mechanics but I also think that we can

559
00:23:02,270 --> 00:23:00,900
draw on

560
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,280
um

561
00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:04,740
what you might broadly call systems

562
00:23:11,810 --> 00:23:09,059
theory so how complex systems emerge

563
00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:11,820
um to understand

564
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:14,520
the different hierarchies of complexity

565
00:23:17,810 --> 00:23:15,840
okay

566
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:17,820
um I mean this is there are so many

567
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:20,159
rabbit holes that I'm avoiding leaping

568
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:22,559
right down I'm happy to go down them uh

569
00:23:28,669 --> 00:23:26,159
one by one but sure but they're deep

570
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:28,679
do you find that you're having a

571
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:31,919
terrible amount of fun when you're

572
00:23:36,529 --> 00:23:33,740
delving into the more

573
00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:36,539
metaphysical side of physics and

574
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:38,460
interpretations so this film in

575
00:23:42,169 --> 00:23:39,840
particular than you are with your own

576
00:23:46,510 --> 00:23:43,909
uh

577
00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:46,520
it's funny yeah so you know I

578
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:49,380
pursued astrophysics because it it

579
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:51,900
honestly just seemed like the most fun

580
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:54,240
asking big questions about really big

581
00:23:59,930 --> 00:23:58,320
things but but over time I've become

582
00:24:02,510 --> 00:23:59,940
more and more interested in the

583
00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:02,520
fundamental and and making space time

584
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:05,100
has been a big part of that also

585
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,360
um and so I I have no regrets the the

586
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:11,520
universe is awesome

587
00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:15,780
um and it's it's really fun to solve big

588
00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:18,900
problems about the universe and also the

589
00:24:24,289 --> 00:24:21,240
the skills I picked up doing that sort

590
00:24:26,690 --> 00:24:24,299
of work I I'm able to bring to bear on

591
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,700
some of these other questions that said

592
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:28,320
you know I'm not

593
00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:31,679
a Quantum theorist I'm not even what you

594
00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:33,000
know most people would call a

595
00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:35,400
theoretical physicist uh which means

596
00:24:41,870 --> 00:24:38,580
there are there are some skills that

597
00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:41,880
I'm going to have to work harder on uh

598
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:44,760
and so this movie is about

599
00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:46,080
you know in a way it's a personal

600
00:24:48,529 --> 00:24:47,280
Journey

601
00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:48,539
um

602
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:52,440
in that I I really want to take stock of

603
00:25:00,590 --> 00:24:53,880
the field

604
00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:00,600
get a sense of where Humanity stands in

605
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:02,700
this question and what the paths forward

606
00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:04,260
could be

607
00:25:07,789 --> 00:25:05,100
um

608
00:25:10,130 --> 00:25:07,799
and yeah so there's that personal level

609
00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:10,140
but I also feel like it

610
00:25:15,409 --> 00:25:13,980
you know it's it's a contribution I

611
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:15,419
think at some level

612
00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:17,640
um it's you know we're by no means the

613
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:19,260
only people talking about this stuff but

614
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:20,760
I think there's

615
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:24,000
a rising Collective interest in this big

616
00:25:28,909 --> 00:25:25,679
picture

617
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:28,919
um asking questions like you know

618
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:31,500
what are we doing anyway what what what

619
00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:34,320
what is the goal of

620
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,840
Being Human and asking questions about

621
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:38,400
the world and

622
00:25:40,909 --> 00:25:39,179
um

623
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:40,919
and

624
00:25:45,769 --> 00:25:43,919
you know I think I think anything we can

625
00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:45,779
do to sort of bring that Collective

626
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:48,539
curiosity together is is useful

627
00:25:52,909 --> 00:25:50,700
especially these days

628
00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:52,919
help me understand how one goes from

629
00:25:57,710 --> 00:25:55,860
physics or even science which is to be a

630
00:26:01,930 --> 00:25:57,720
description again how does one go from

631
00:26:06,649 --> 00:26:01,940
that description to an ought

632
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:06,659
well I think I mean the the easy answer

633
00:26:10,010 --> 00:26:07,980
is just

634
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:10,020
that whenever you grant perspective you

635
00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:11,520
grant power

636
00:26:18,049 --> 00:26:15,000
um you know it's the same reason we do

637
00:26:19,370 --> 00:26:18,059
science communication on YouTube

638
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:19,380
um and

639
00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:22,080
uh

640
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:25,020
you know I feel like it's no secret that

641
00:26:29,529 --> 00:26:28,080
we are a deeply factionalized species

642
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:29,539
right now

643
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:35,450
um

644
00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:39,360
and and you know we've we've we've

645
00:26:43,370 --> 00:26:41,340
buried our heads so deeply you know

646
00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:43,380
we're sort of all we're all playing our

647
00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:46,200
own little mini games you know where

648
00:26:53,169 --> 00:26:49,740
where we're overwhelmed you know by by

649
00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:53,179
the buzz of all media by

650
00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:55,860
just the stuff going around the world

651
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:58,260
right now and so we we like to organize

652
00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:00,059
the world into these simplified little

653
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:02,340
systems of elements and simple rules and

654
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:05,580
we sort of organized these mini-games of

655
00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:06,960
life and then you know we try to win

656
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:09,900
them like whether we're winning games of

657
00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:12,480
political Dynamics at work or you know

658
00:27:18,169 --> 00:27:14,820
trying to just stay solvent and collect

659
00:27:20,330 --> 00:27:18,179
enough retirement or you know the the

660
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:20,340
game of empowering your chosening group

661
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:23,279
so we we

662
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,559
um we diminish the world so that so that

663
00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:27,120
we can handle it

664
00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:29,580
um and

665
00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:30,900
I guess

666
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:35,460
the thing that science can do is that it

667
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:38,159
can show us

668
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,720
bigger Landscapes right we we are only

669
00:27:47,149 --> 00:27:45,120
able so if you can imagine the infinite

670
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:47,159
landscape of you know possible ways to

671
00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:49,200
live your life possible things you can

672
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:53,700
do ways to be uh we we tend to

673
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:56,159
um to blinker up and Define these

674
00:28:02,990 --> 00:27:59,760
um these manageable sub Landscapes and

675
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:03,000
we you know navigate those little spaces

676
00:28:08,269 --> 00:28:05,640
um but of course we inevitably come to

677
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:08,279
believe that our chosen little sliver

678
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,279
is the world as it really is

679
00:28:16,210 --> 00:28:13,039
okay we we

680
00:28:19,850 --> 00:28:16,220
mistake the sub game for the game and

681
00:28:22,669 --> 00:28:19,860
our compactification of reality

682
00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:22,679
in our minds becomes reality and

683
00:28:30,769 --> 00:28:27,020
um and I am as guilty as most in that

684
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:30,779
but really I'd say any type of education

685
00:28:35,149 --> 00:28:33,240
broadens perspective and shows us

686
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:35,159
grander games

687
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:37,260
um and that there are enormous

688
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:39,000
Landscapes of possibility you know

689
00:28:41,690 --> 00:28:40,620
outside whatever erupt we happen to be

690
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:41,700
in

691
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:45,600
and so uh so

692
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:49,440
exposing people to new information

693
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,740
um is is usually always good okay there

694
00:28:57,169 --> 00:28:54,480
are exceptions but science I find

695
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:57,179
particularly important and Powerful

696
00:29:01,610 --> 00:28:59,640
because it's

697
00:29:03,470 --> 00:29:01,620
in a way it's General so it's not

698
00:29:06,529 --> 00:29:03,480
science isn't about the subject matter

699
00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:06,539
it's about the methodologies okay the

700
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:08,340
methodology is if you like of Truth

701
00:29:12,289 --> 00:29:09,360
finding

702
00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:12,299
um and those methods can be applied at

703
00:29:17,450 --> 00:29:14,400
least at some level to any question or

704
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:17,460
any field uh in ways that improve our

705
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:21,360
ability to explore the Landscapes of you

706
00:29:28,669 --> 00:29:26,210
um and so

707
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:28,679
uh

708
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:33,840
so I mean granting people the access to

709
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:35,640
some of the

710
00:29:39,889 --> 00:29:38,100
just the things we've learned in the in

711
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:39,899
science that are incredibly powerful the

712
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:41,940
methodology is the ways of thinking even

713
00:29:48,409 --> 00:29:44,820
just the habits of thought are

714
00:29:51,470 --> 00:29:48,419
um just super powerful tools for

715
00:29:54,409 --> 00:29:51,480
improving how people even live their

716
00:29:55,730 --> 00:29:54,419
lives because these these ideas become

717
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:55,740
embedded

718
00:29:59,450 --> 00:29:58,380
it becomes subliminal

719
00:30:04,070 --> 00:29:59,460
um

720
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:04,080
and but I guess I maybe the way I think

721
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:06,179
about science is that it's uh like a

722
00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:08,159
formalization of how our brains work

723
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:09,720
naturally

724
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,700
um if you think of our minds as tools

725
00:30:15,409 --> 00:30:13,440
for navigating the world and and that's

726
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:15,419
the physical world the social world and

727
00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:19,440
you know worlds of arbitrary abstraction

728
00:30:25,610 --> 00:30:23,100
um and so so cognition which is the

729
00:30:27,049 --> 00:30:25,620
process of asking questions seeking

730
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:27,059
evidence formulating models and

731
00:30:33,470 --> 00:30:30,000
hypotheses and making choices

732
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:33,480
um which sounds more like science and

733
00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:35,340
you know in our brains that's all

734
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,620
happening constantly and mostly

735
00:30:40,190 --> 00:30:39,600
subconsciously

736
00:30:42,409 --> 00:30:40,200
um

737
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:42,419
and

738
00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:45,720
that we don't just do this individually

739
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:47,940
so we

740
00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:50,159
aging this sort of collective cognition

741
00:30:55,549 --> 00:30:52,740
you know through discussion with each

742
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:55,559
other in an explicit way but also you

743
00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:00,000
could argue that we are cogitating as a

744
00:31:03,649 --> 00:31:01,740
society through ART and religion and

745
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:03,659
politics and

746
00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:06,600
um you know so we can think about

747
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:08,279
culture I guess is this Collective

748
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,600
cognition

749
00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:11,360
um and

750
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,860
even a

751
00:31:19,730 --> 00:31:16,080
you know I like to think of culture as a

752
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:19,740
search algorithm for for truth okay so

753
00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:22,140
if part of culture is a world model okay

754
00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:25,500
and every culture has its consensus

755
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:29,100
reality then uh then

756
00:31:35,510 --> 00:31:32,520
you know that that little kind of local

757
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,520
minimum in the possibility space of what

758
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:37,919
the world is and how to live

759
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:42,000
is something that that culture found

760
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,120
and so you know cultural Evolution I

761
00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:47,279
guess sort of navigates the landscape of

762
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:49,740
possible ways to

763
00:31:52,909 --> 00:31:51,360
think about the world and about

764
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:52,919
ourselves

765
00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:55,440
um and and so

766
00:32:01,070 --> 00:31:57,600
if science then

767
00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:01,080
in some ways systematizes cognition and

768
00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:04,440
can make us better at it individually or

769
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:05,880
collectively

770
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,159
then we get better at mapping the

771
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:10,080
landscape

772
00:32:13,389 --> 00:32:12,539
um here's the fact that occurs to me if

773
00:32:18,350 --> 00:32:13,399
science

774
00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:18,360
is the epitome of making systematic what

775
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:20,520
is our cognition and what we're trying

776
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:22,799
to do or what you're up to with this

777
00:32:26,510 --> 00:32:24,480
documentary is not only investigating

778
00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:26,520
reality but trying to avoid some of our

779
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:29,340
own cognitive biases but I imagine if

780
00:32:33,889 --> 00:32:31,440
science is modeling the way that our

781
00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:33,899
brains work but our brains have a bias

782
00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:37,320
then how does one scientifically not

783
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:40,020
have this bias built in it's super hard

784
00:32:46,490 --> 00:32:42,480
and science is no guarantee against this

785
00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:49,310
one to me one of the most incredible

786
00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:51,960
things about the Scientific Revolution

787
00:32:57,289 --> 00:32:53,520
is that

788
00:32:59,570 --> 00:32:57,299
it gave us at least the potential for

789
00:33:01,310 --> 00:32:59,580
meta awareness

790
00:33:03,950 --> 00:33:01,320
um of

791
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:03,960
of the fact that there even is a

792
00:33:09,169 --> 00:33:05,580
possibility landscape

793
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:09,179
you know versus a singular ground truth

794
00:33:13,789 --> 00:33:12,299
um and the potential for the awareness

795
00:33:17,149 --> 00:33:13,799
that there's a distinction between

796
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:17,159
reality versus a model of reality

797
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:20,640
philosophy also okay so so I think you

798
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:23,039
know uh I'm maybe

799
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:25,919
mixing together the the the

800
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:26,960
um

801
00:33:31,850 --> 00:33:31,080
breakthroughs of of Enlightenment and

802
00:33:33,649 --> 00:33:31,860
um

803
00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:33,659
and

804
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:40,919
fields of of rational thought

805
00:33:47,149 --> 00:33:43,440
um allow us to at least in principle

806
00:33:49,549 --> 00:33:47,159
know about that biases are possible this

807
00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:49,559
might be inaccurate

808
00:33:57,289 --> 00:33:52,220
um so you you know I I talk about

809
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,350
um so I feel like science allows us to

810
00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:02,399
upgrade that search algorithm so that

811
00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:04,380
we're less likely to get stuck in a

812
00:34:10,430 --> 00:34:07,280
local minimum but because we introduce

813
00:34:13,129 --> 00:34:10,440
exploration into like with the the

814
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:13,139
explicit ability to explore to our

815
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:15,020
little a little

816
00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:18,000
uh search algorithm

817
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:18,780
um

818
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:21,240
robot whatever it is a little Valley

819
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:25,020
crawler and uh and it also allows us to

820
00:34:30,349 --> 00:34:27,359
explicitly incorporate uncertainties

821
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:30,359
into whatever the loss function of that

822
00:34:34,909 --> 00:34:31,919
search algorithm

823
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:34,919
um so it's like a a meta expansion of

824
00:34:41,329 --> 00:34:39,720
our ability to uh to explore possibility

825
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:41,339
space

826
00:34:46,609 --> 00:34:43,919
so okay another thought that occurs to

827
00:34:48,369 --> 00:34:46,619
me is this is not a thought that

828
00:34:50,570 --> 00:34:48,379
this is not a Viewpoint that I have

829
00:34:52,490 --> 00:34:50,580
necessarily but it's one that I'm sure

830
00:34:55,490 --> 00:34:52,500
that someone or some people who watched

831
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:55,500
me have thought okay so we have a

832
00:34:59,450 --> 00:34:57,420
cultural model of reality every culture

833
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,460
has this when we have science we have

834
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:01,440
something that we believe is a cultural

835
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,800
so it's non-cultural it's objective

836
00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:07,440
however they would say yeah but that's a

837
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:09,300
eurocentric way of thinking because

838
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:11,520
we're though of course we're going to

839
00:35:15,530 --> 00:35:13,440
say our culture is the one that has the

840
00:35:17,450 --> 00:35:15,540
objective method so what would your

841
00:35:19,089 --> 00:35:17,460
response be to that

842
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:19,099
I I I I I

843
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:22,140
really value this

844
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:24,119
um being brought to

845
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:28,020
attention because it's true that

846
00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:31,920
uh that you know when we talk about

847
00:35:38,030 --> 00:35:34,440
science it's not one thing

848
00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:38,040
okay so there sort of is a eurocentric

849
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:41,099
culture that comes under the label of

850
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:43,920
science but that's not all that's not

851
00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:45,780
all that science is

852
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:46,500
um

853
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:48,320
and

854
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:53,760
so science is also a

855
00:36:02,390 --> 00:35:59,520
revolution in our ability to to cogitate

856
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:02,400
um on on many levels

857
00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:04,260
um and that

858
00:36:12,589 --> 00:36:07,260
is bundled with other

859
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:12,599
cultural factors uh in in some ways for

860
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:15,960
instance but but it also but it also

861
00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:19,920
has its independent existence and the

862
00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:23,640
value of the kind of the raw upgrade

863
00:36:28,970 --> 00:36:26,460
that science gave us is that

864
00:36:31,970 --> 00:36:28,980
in in principle and I've been careful to

865
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:31,980
say in principle in principle it allows

866
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:34,920
us the type of meta awareness that can

867
00:36:39,730 --> 00:36:38,000
lead us to those sorts of biases

868
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:39,740
and

869
00:36:46,849 --> 00:36:43,200
you know I I don't want to say that

870
00:36:49,609 --> 00:36:46,859
uh the the Western Scientific Method is

871
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:49,619
how brains work it's absolutely not as

872
00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:52,260
simple as that but there are there are

873
00:36:58,670 --> 00:36:55,500
correlations that are powerful and that

874
00:36:59,329 --> 00:36:58,680
I I think are

875
00:37:01,550 --> 00:36:59,339
um

876
00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:01,560
you know transcultural

877
00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:05,880
and and that uh their uh wisdom

878
00:37:11,630 --> 00:37:09,000
Traditions that talk about these things

879
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,640
in very different ways

880
00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:13,920
um that right you should spend more time

881
00:37:20,990 --> 00:37:17,220
trying to translate between yeah that's

882
00:37:23,569 --> 00:37:21,000
my response as well well firstly one is

883
00:37:26,030 --> 00:37:23,579
to say that science is not all in the

884
00:37:27,470 --> 00:37:26,040
sense that well that's not only my point

885
00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:27,480
of view Hillary Putnam said something

886
00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:29,460
similar and same with Feynman he had

887
00:37:33,230 --> 00:37:31,140
this famous quotation about logic is not

888
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:33,240
all that one needs hearts

889
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:37,280
and secondly that to call science

890
00:37:43,609 --> 00:37:40,320
eurocentric is to not recognize the

891
00:37:46,670 --> 00:37:43,619
contributions from many other cultures

892
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,680
yeah yeah I mean I I was echoing uh your

893
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:48,720
language a little bit there

894
00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:49,440
um

895
00:37:54,109 --> 00:37:52,020
you know the fact is that

896
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:54,119
you know a bunch of

897
00:38:00,050 --> 00:37:56,700
old white European men dominated science

898
00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:00,060
for quite some time and there's still

899
00:38:04,370 --> 00:38:03,000
you know that that influence in some of

900
00:38:06,589 --> 00:38:04,380
the

901
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:06,599
institutions of science

902
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:08,940
Henson shaving is a family-owned

903
00:38:13,370 --> 00:38:11,520
Aerospace parts manufacturer that's made

904
00:38:16,010 --> 00:38:13,380
parts for the International Space

905
00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:16,020
Station and the Mars rover and now

906
00:38:20,270 --> 00:38:17,460
they're bringing that Precision

907
00:38:22,970 --> 00:38:20,280
Engineering to your shaving experience

908
00:38:24,829 --> 00:38:22,980
so here's a personal story I gave the

909
00:38:26,930 --> 00:38:24,839
razor to Sam who's working behind the

910
00:38:28,609 --> 00:38:26,940
scenes here at the toe podcast I didn't

911
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:28,619
tell him who it was from I just said you

912
00:38:31,849 --> 00:38:30,300
need a razor he said sure then I asked

913
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:31,859
him hey how was that razor the next

914
00:38:37,130 --> 00:38:34,320
couple days later he's like Kurt that is

915
00:38:38,510 --> 00:38:37,140
the best razor I have ever used and then

916
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:38,520
I said by the way that's a sponsor

917
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:41,520
Henson then he said that is fantastic

918
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:42,960
and he looked it up and they're an

919
00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:44,880
aerospace engineering company so that's

920
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:47,220
in a Side Story that's a true story it's

921
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:49,740
packaged extremely carefully the handle

922
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:52,140
looks beautiful the assembly takes 10

923
00:38:57,530 --> 00:38:55,260
seconds and the blade is as precise as

924
00:38:59,569 --> 00:38:57,540
I've ever seen in a commercial razor by

925
00:39:01,730 --> 00:38:59,579
using Aerospace grade CNC machines

926
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:01,740
Henson makes metal razors that extend

927
00:39:06,530 --> 00:39:04,320
less than the thickness of a human hair

928
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:06,540
that means it's a secure and stable

929
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:09,119
Blade with no vibrations so the Razer

930
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:10,800
has built-in channels and it evacuates

931
00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:12,720
hair and cream which makes clogging

932
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:14,940
virtually impossible you blow it out and

933
00:39:19,790 --> 00:39:17,460
it's cleared that's what she said Henson

934
00:39:22,430 --> 00:39:19,800
shaving wants to produce the best razors

935
00:39:25,609 --> 00:39:22,440
not the best razor business so that

936
00:39:28,069 --> 00:39:25,619
means no plastics no subscriptions no

937
00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:28,079
proprietary blades and no planned

938
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:30,359
obsolescence and it's extremely

939
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,520
affordable The Henson Razer works with

940
00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:34,079
the standard dual Edge blades that give

941
00:39:38,589 --> 00:39:35,880
you that old-school shave with the

942
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:38,599
benefits of this new school Tech visit

943
00:39:43,069 --> 00:39:41,280
hensonshaving.com everything if you use

944
00:39:45,650 --> 00:39:43,079
that code you'll get two years worth of

945
00:39:48,349 --> 00:39:45,660
blades for free just make sure to add

946
00:39:53,710 --> 00:39:48,359
them to your cart that's 100 free blades

947
00:39:59,329 --> 00:39:55,430
h-e-n-s-o-n-s-h-a-v-i-n-g.com slash

948
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,339
everything and use the code everything

949
00:40:03,710 --> 00:40:00,960
curious if you think a Theory of

950
00:40:05,150 --> 00:40:03,720
Everything exists firstly secondly if we

951
00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:05,160
could know it so that presumes that

952
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,380
there exists one

953
00:40:14,089 --> 00:40:09,359
yeah well

954
00:40:16,370 --> 00:40:14,099
so uh so I mean it depends what you mean

955
00:40:17,089 --> 00:40:16,380
by a theory of everything I guess

956
00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:17,099
um

957
00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:19,320
you know

958
00:40:25,849 --> 00:40:23,579
is there a single equation that drives

959
00:40:27,589 --> 00:40:25,859
all of reality

960
00:40:28,849 --> 00:40:27,599
and that knowing the equation would be

961
00:40:30,650 --> 00:40:28,859
enough to

962
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:30,660
to make a new universe if you could

963
00:40:33,290 --> 00:40:31,980
implement it

964
00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:33,300
um

965
00:40:39,950 --> 00:40:34,740
I

966
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:39,960
it's possible

967
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:40,560
um

968
00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:41,880
I

969
00:40:55,490 --> 00:40:50,700
behind the idea that there is a

970
00:41:02,810 --> 00:40:59,329
description that can be wrapped up in a

971
00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:02,820
way that a human brain can comprehend

972
00:41:06,829 --> 00:41:05,040
uh you know I think it

973
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:06,839
you know I was talking about the idea

974
00:41:14,270 --> 00:41:10,560
that that we necessarily

975
00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:14,280
uh only see a subset of reality and only

976
00:41:20,569 --> 00:41:18,420
model set of reality okay now in in

977
00:41:23,270 --> 00:41:20,579
the world that we walk through that we

978
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:23,280
inhabit our own uh subjective experience

979
00:41:26,329 --> 00:41:24,960
and the

980
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:26,339
um

981
00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:29,520
the the network of relationships that we

982
00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:32,579
think govern the world so it's both you

983
00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:34,740
know in our in our own mental

984
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:37,140
constructions of the world but also

985
00:41:41,810 --> 00:41:40,020
in each separate academic field these

986
00:41:44,990 --> 00:41:41,820
are these are slices

987
00:41:48,589 --> 00:41:45,000
and we see that that these regularities

988
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:48,599
emerge from whatever's really there

989
00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:52,079
and in in very particular ways we can

990
00:41:55,790 --> 00:41:54,780
capture those regularities and turn them

991
00:41:58,849 --> 00:41:55,800
into

992
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:58,859
an academic field or whatever

993
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,760
um

994
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:02,640
and so what physics has said is that all

995
00:42:08,510 --> 00:42:05,520
right this is what we've been doing for

996
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:08,520
all of the history of you know

997
00:42:14,810 --> 00:42:12,000
human inquiry is trying to find these

998
00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:14,820
different ways to slice reality into

999
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:18,000
into networks of relationships

1000
00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:19,680
we think

1001
00:42:27,010 --> 00:42:22,440
that all of it emerges from a single

1002
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:27,020
most fundamental uh rule essentially

1003
00:42:34,450 --> 00:42:30,720
and that might be true but I don't think

1004
00:42:36,589 --> 00:42:34,460
it's clear that it's true

1005
00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:36,599
I think

1006
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:38,460
you know that might be one of the biases

1007
00:42:43,010 --> 00:42:40,560
our we've trained ourselves to believe

1008
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:43,020
that that might be the case but you know

1009
00:42:51,770 --> 00:42:48,770
some emerging

1010
00:42:53,329 --> 00:42:51,780
ideas that really put to question the

1011
00:42:57,770 --> 00:42:53,339
notion of what

1012
00:42:59,329 --> 00:42:57,780
fundamental really means all right Steph

1013
00:43:01,250 --> 00:42:59,339
so

1014
00:43:02,050 --> 00:43:01,260
you know the

1015
00:43:05,569 --> 00:43:02,060
the

1016
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:05,579
reductionist philosophy that we can you

1017
00:43:09,890 --> 00:43:08,040
know first we physically seek smaller

1018
00:43:12,370 --> 00:43:09,900
and smaller elements of reality than

1019
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:12,380
seek

1020
00:43:19,730 --> 00:43:17,520
uh deeper levels of causation uh

1021
00:43:21,950 --> 00:43:19,740
until we find the bottom

1022
00:43:24,349 --> 00:43:21,960
um you know we should be ultimately the

1023
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:24,359
most simple ideally

1024
00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:28,609
so

1025
00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:31,619
there are there are cases where it's not

1026
00:43:37,609 --> 00:43:34,920
true that the most simplest description

1027
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:37,619
of reality is the most fundamental okay

1028
00:43:44,329 --> 00:43:41,760
so if you want to model say fluid flow

1029
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,339
please use Bernoulli's equation rather

1030
00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:46,319
than Quantum field Theory even though in

1031
00:43:50,930 --> 00:43:48,180
principle you could use the latter the

1032
00:43:53,630 --> 00:43:50,940
latter is in principle more fundamental

1033
00:43:56,809 --> 00:43:53,640
um so you know these regularities arise

1034
00:43:58,370 --> 00:43:56,819
and and prove simpler than their

1035
00:43:59,569 --> 00:43:58,380
substrates the rules governing their

1036
00:44:02,329 --> 00:43:59,579
substrates if you wanted to do a

1037
00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:02,339
particular calculation in them

1038
00:44:07,790 --> 00:44:03,480
um

1039
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:07,800
so so as you go up in in size scale or

1040
00:44:12,589 --> 00:44:09,599
in other other scales also complexity

1041
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:12,599
scale you see things simplify and then

1042
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:14,400
unsimplify

1043
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:18,720
um and but but in in a way that means

1044
00:44:23,930 --> 00:44:20,700
that these what we would call these

1045
00:44:26,510 --> 00:44:23,940
layers of say emergent complexity are

1046
00:44:28,849 --> 00:44:26,520
not in in any way predictable from the

1047
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:28,859
lower layers

1048
00:44:34,010 --> 00:44:31,680
um so Stephen Wolfram talks about the

1049
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:34,020
idea of computational irreducibility

1050
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:37,440
okay there there are things about the

1051
00:44:41,450 --> 00:44:39,599
universe that you can't predict without

1052
00:44:45,609 --> 00:44:41,460
literally running the universe and that

1053
00:44:49,870 --> 00:44:45,619
includes some of the the

1054
00:44:55,370 --> 00:44:49,880
incredibly beautiful and regular

1055
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:55,380
patterns that emerge that um you know

1056
00:45:01,010 --> 00:44:59,160
for example fluid flow or life uh that

1057
00:45:02,329 --> 00:45:01,020
that you could never predict by looking

1058
00:45:04,849 --> 00:45:02,339
at a quark

1059
00:45:10,069 --> 00:45:04,859
so

1060
00:45:10,609 --> 00:45:10,079
the first point that

1061
00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:10,619
um

1062
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:15,540
that the I guess what what was this

1063
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:18,000
you might call this Newtonian Paradigm

1064
00:45:22,430 --> 00:45:21,240
where you know once you know how all the

1065
00:45:25,910 --> 00:45:22,440
little billiard balls are moving around

1066
00:45:29,930 --> 00:45:25,920
you can predict the universe is

1067
00:45:31,550 --> 00:45:29,940
only sort of true but in a meaningful

1068
00:45:32,270 --> 00:45:31,560
way it's not true

1069
00:45:33,950 --> 00:45:32,280
um

1070
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,960
so

1071
00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:35,880
you know there are there are examples

1072
00:45:40,010 --> 00:45:37,140
like

1073
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:40,020
um all right so let's let's dig down to

1074
00:45:45,950 --> 00:45:43,140
something closer to the fundamental

1075
00:45:48,050 --> 00:45:45,960
let's get into physics

1076
00:45:54,109 --> 00:45:50,390
highly speculative physics so like take

1077
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:54,119
the the ads CFT correspondence right so

1078
00:45:59,930 --> 00:45:56,160
the holographic principle

1079
00:46:01,490 --> 00:45:59,940
so um so this is the idea that well let

1080
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:01,500
let me give you the sort of popular

1081
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:04,260
media View and the idea is that the that

1082
00:46:10,970 --> 00:46:08,400
our universe could be a hologram

1083
00:46:13,609 --> 00:46:10,980
uh that's projected inwards from

1084
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:13,619
something happening on the the 2D

1085
00:46:18,650 --> 00:46:15,839
surface of the boundary

1086
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,660
um and and therefore our universe is an

1087
00:46:22,190 --> 00:46:20,640
illusion and it's that service out there

1088
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:22,200
that's real

1089
00:46:25,550 --> 00:46:22,800
um

1090
00:46:27,230 --> 00:46:25,560
and it's more complicated than that uh

1091
00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:27,240
obviously the the number of dimensions

1092
00:46:33,710 --> 00:46:30,780
and and the curvature of the Interior

1093
00:46:36,530 --> 00:46:33,720
but yeah but anyway the idea the idea

1094
00:46:37,370 --> 00:46:36,540
sure I presented usually presented is

1095
00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:37,380
that

1096
00:46:45,050 --> 00:46:42,839
whatever's real is out there

1097
00:46:48,170 --> 00:46:45,060
um that's that's absolutely not what ads

1098
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:48,180
CFT is saying what it's saying is that

1099
00:46:52,430 --> 00:46:50,880
in what we call the bulk which is the

1100
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:52,440
volume which is which would in this case

1101
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:55,680
would be our universe we it's explained

1102
00:47:04,010 --> 00:46:58,319
by a gravitational Theory okay general

1103
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:04,020
relativity and the surface is explained

1104
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:05,700
by a field Theory a conformal field

1105
00:47:10,609 --> 00:47:08,160
Theory and it's not that

1106
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:10,619
one causes the other

1107
00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:13,920
the um what adcft is saying is that they

1108
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:16,500
are dual to each other so they are

1109
00:47:20,809 --> 00:47:18,900
called a duality they're equivalent

1110
00:47:23,390 --> 00:47:20,819
descriptions of exactly the same thing

1111
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:23,400
and neither is more fundamental than the

1112
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:26,280
other that to me is part of the problem

1113
00:47:30,770 --> 00:47:28,079
of the common purveyors of science

1114
00:47:32,270 --> 00:47:30,780
trying to mystify the public by saying

1115
00:47:34,370 --> 00:47:32,280
that the universe is unreal and it's

1116
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:34,380
holographic well you just said there's a

1117
00:47:37,130 --> 00:47:35,760
duality what makes you think that the

1118
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:37,140
boundary is more fundamental than the

1119
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:39,060
bulk space you can't say that one is

1120
00:47:45,290 --> 00:47:41,760
more than the other if there's a duel

1121
00:47:46,010 --> 00:47:45,300
yeah exactly exactly right and

1122
00:47:48,109 --> 00:47:46,020
um

1123
00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:48,119
and and sometimes one does look more

1124
00:47:54,589 --> 00:47:52,260
real for example it's I mean ads safety

1125
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:54,599
is a hugely useful Paradigm even if it

1126
00:47:58,490 --> 00:47:56,400
may not apply directly to our universe

1127
00:48:01,250 --> 00:47:58,500
because it's much easier to do

1128
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,260
computations in one of these

1129
00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:03,119
representations than the other in some

1130
00:48:07,790 --> 00:48:05,640
cases and in other cases the other

1131
00:48:10,809 --> 00:48:07,800
representation is the one that's

1132
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:10,819
tractable okay so in

1133
00:48:15,290 --> 00:48:13,920
uh the um

1134
00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:15,300
the

1135
00:48:20,290 --> 00:48:17,700
strong interaction limit

1136
00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,300
of one where you can't do

1137
00:48:24,550 --> 00:48:22,859
calculations you can't use for example

1138
00:48:28,670 --> 00:48:24,560
perturbation Theory to do calculations

1139
00:48:30,109 --> 00:48:28,680
like like inside a black hole uh in on

1140
00:48:32,089 --> 00:48:30,119
the on the other side in this case if

1141
00:48:34,490 --> 00:48:32,099
you have a black hole in the in the bulk

1142
00:48:36,410 --> 00:48:34,500
in our universe then its representation

1143
00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:36,420
on its surface

1144
00:48:40,910 --> 00:48:37,740
is

1145
00:48:44,030 --> 00:48:40,920
um weekly interacting structure that you

1146
00:48:46,490 --> 00:48:44,040
can do computations with okay and so uh

1147
00:48:48,349 --> 00:48:46,500
so neither is more fundamental just

1148
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,359
sometimes one is useful and sometimes

1149
00:48:52,609 --> 00:48:49,920
the other is useful

1150
00:48:54,410 --> 00:48:52,619
uh and this isn't this isn't a fringe

1151
00:48:57,470 --> 00:48:54,420
example I mean it's a it's just a cool

1152
00:49:01,130 --> 00:48:57,480
example that these dualities

1153
00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:01,140
um which is not the sense of Duality or

1154
00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:03,780
dualism in philosophy at all it it means

1155
00:49:07,849 --> 00:49:05,780
that that two

1156
00:49:11,630 --> 00:49:07,859
seemingly different

1157
00:49:14,030 --> 00:49:11,640
descriptions uh like wildly even

1158
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:14,040
contradictably different descriptions

1159
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:16,500
represent the same thing uh two

1160
00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:18,240
different stories describe the same

1161
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:20,940
thing so so string theory is Rife with

1162
00:49:25,490 --> 00:49:23,220
Duality is like at the limit of the

1163
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:25,500
energy scales we see Elementary strings

1164
00:49:32,210 --> 00:49:28,200
and emergent strings sort of morph into

1165
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:32,220
each other but also in you know more

1166
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:34,140
accepted physics like in quantum

1167
00:49:39,230 --> 00:49:37,440
mechanics the idea of complementarity is

1168
00:49:44,030 --> 00:49:39,240
a duality

1169
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,040
um so you know usually encapsulated or

1170
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:46,319
summarized in uh the Heisenberg

1171
00:49:49,730 --> 00:49:47,940
uncertainty principle but the idea that

1172
00:49:53,089 --> 00:49:49,740
we can represent

1173
00:49:54,890 --> 00:49:53,099
all of matter as either a linear

1174
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:54,900
combination of

1175
00:49:59,089 --> 00:49:56,160
uh

1176
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:59,099
Quantum fields in position space or

1177
00:50:03,050 --> 00:50:00,480
their vibrational modes in position

1178
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:03,060
space okay and that's a representation

1179
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:06,240
of the universe or equally equivalently

1180
00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:08,579
we can do the same thing in momentum

1181
00:50:11,410 --> 00:50:09,660
space and

1182
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:11,420
they're they're

1183
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:14,040
very different stories about what the

1184
00:50:17,870 --> 00:50:15,839
world looks like but they're equivalent

1185
00:50:20,450 --> 00:50:17,880
and not and no one would argue that one

1186
00:50:23,150 --> 00:50:20,460
is more fundamental than the other

1187
00:50:25,250 --> 00:50:23,160
um while there are some people who on

1188
00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:25,260
the more again of a more esoteric end

1189
00:50:29,870 --> 00:50:27,240
who like to emphasize that it's all

1190
00:50:32,210 --> 00:50:29,880
vibrations and it's all waves yeah you

1191
00:50:33,290 --> 00:50:32,220
can Fourier transform so you can make it

1192
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:33,300
discrete again

1193
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:35,940
yeah exactly you know and then and then

1194
00:50:40,750 --> 00:50:38,160
you know we let's not even get started

1195
00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:40,760
on like the S Matrix or the

1196
00:50:45,950 --> 00:50:44,460
amplitudehedron which uh which are ways

1197
00:50:49,490 --> 00:50:45,960
to describe the interactions between

1198
00:50:54,430 --> 00:50:49,500
particles which don't even require space

1199
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:54,440
and time and uh and waves and and

1200
00:51:00,829 --> 00:50:57,960
fall out in which you can

1201
00:51:03,230 --> 00:51:00,839
summarize pages and pages of calculation

1202
00:51:04,910 --> 00:51:03,240
with a few lines of calculation which

1203
00:51:06,650 --> 00:51:04,920
implies that these things should be more

1204
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:06,660
fundamental but I don't think that's

1205
00:51:10,430 --> 00:51:08,880
clear I think that their their stories

1206
00:51:12,829 --> 00:51:10,440
about what's happening that have

1207
00:51:15,650 --> 00:51:12,839
incredible mathematical utility what

1208
00:51:17,569 --> 00:51:15,660
they are is a regularity

1209
00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:17,579
that we've discovered

1210
00:51:22,910 --> 00:51:20,460
uh you sound like Bernardo Castro have

1211
00:51:26,030 --> 00:51:22,920
you watched a bunch of his talks or his

1212
00:51:29,329 --> 00:51:26,040
podcasts I've seen I think I watched

1213
00:51:31,549 --> 00:51:29,339
your interview with Bernardo actually

1214
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:31,559
um I think I agree with some of what he

1215
00:51:37,370 --> 00:51:34,800
says and I disagree with some other what

1216
00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:37,380
are the agreements that you think are

1217
00:51:44,270 --> 00:51:39,240
seen as controversial

1218
00:51:46,089 --> 00:51:44,280
so I I like his characterization of

1219
00:51:49,089 --> 00:51:46,099
um

1220
00:51:52,210 --> 00:51:49,099
Minds as

1221
00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:52,220
dissociative boundaries or or

1222
00:51:58,430 --> 00:51:55,980
agents in dissociative boundaries so you

1223
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:58,440
know my understanding is that Bernardo

1224
00:52:02,690 --> 00:51:59,760
uh

1225
00:52:04,490 --> 00:52:02,700
rates Consciousness as the most

1226
00:52:07,309 --> 00:52:04,500
fundamental

1227
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:07,319
um and so you know you talk about

1228
00:52:13,730 --> 00:52:11,040
the universe is this is this thing made

1229
00:52:17,569 --> 00:52:13,740
of Consciousness and then Consciousness

1230
00:52:19,130 --> 00:52:17,579
arises in the universe and and it and so

1231
00:52:21,470 --> 00:52:19,140
the idea of dissociative boundaries is

1232
00:52:23,329 --> 00:52:21,480
that like you you could if you had your

1233
00:52:25,309 --> 00:52:23,339
own internal dissociative boundaries you

1234
00:52:27,770 --> 00:52:25,319
could maybe have something like a split

1235
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:27,780
personality or you know you wouldn't

1236
00:52:32,809 --> 00:52:30,839
remember that you'd done and you and and

1237
00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:32,819
things like that and so the idea that

1238
00:52:37,849 --> 00:52:36,079
it's a it's a nice

1239
00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:37,859
characterization

1240
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:38,700
um

1241
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:42,960
what I don't buy is that Baseline

1242
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:46,800
statement that the universe that the

1243
00:52:51,290 --> 00:52:48,300
fundamental element of the universe is

1244
00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:51,300
consciousness I don't I don't see why

1245
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:54,540
it's needed and I don't think there's a

1246
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:57,119
good justification

1247
00:53:01,490 --> 00:52:58,319
um

1248
00:53:03,049 --> 00:53:01,500
yeah we could go further

1249
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:03,059
you want to go further as to your

1250
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:04,319
disagreements or your agreements or

1251
00:53:08,270 --> 00:53:05,880
something else

1252
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:08,280
okay well just in the context of of what

1253
00:53:11,809 --> 00:53:10,920
we're discussing

1254
00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:11,819
um

1255
00:53:17,390 --> 00:53:14,339
so I think you know we're talking about

1256
00:53:19,790 --> 00:53:17,400
these dual descriptions of the world uh

1257
00:53:21,530 --> 00:53:19,800
so

1258
00:53:25,609 --> 00:53:21,540
um

1259
00:53:31,010 --> 00:53:25,619
you know I would say that

1260
00:53:37,790 --> 00:53:35,809
like a dynamical causal system okay so

1261
00:53:41,450 --> 00:53:37,800
something describable with a set of

1262
00:53:44,089 --> 00:53:41,460
Dynamics sure dynamics of you know

1263
00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:44,099
thoughts basically okay that that that

1264
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:46,380
cause and influence each other and you

1265
00:53:50,890 --> 00:53:49,380
could and and you know the the field of

1266
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:50,900
psychology

1267
00:53:57,410 --> 00:53:53,760
you could imagine as

1268
00:53:59,690 --> 00:53:57,420
uh an extremely early version of some

1269
00:54:02,030 --> 00:53:59,700
field where you came up with the the

1270
00:54:03,710 --> 00:54:02,040
internal dynamics of the mind okay but

1271
00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:03,720
but still

1272
00:54:08,450 --> 00:54:04,800
um

1273
00:54:09,829 --> 00:54:08,460
so so if you describe the mind as this

1274
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:09,839
dynamical system

1275
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:13,200
where there's

1276
00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:17,280
like genuine causal power

1277
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:19,619
in within that system defined within

1278
00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:21,240
that system

1279
00:54:25,790 --> 00:54:24,300
um then uh

1280
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:25,800
then

1281
00:54:31,849 --> 00:54:29,280
the The Duel to that would be a

1282
00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:31,859
you know our brains where you have this

1283
00:54:34,970 --> 00:54:33,660
dynamics of neurons and action

1284
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:34,980
potentials

1285
00:54:40,190 --> 00:54:36,960
okay and so

1286
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:40,200
um so I so you know my my

1287
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:44,160
uh feeling on the matter is that

1288
00:54:48,730 --> 00:54:46,079
that well I can't believe I'm saying

1289
00:54:52,549 --> 00:54:48,740
what I think Consciousness is but I'm

1290
00:54:55,790 --> 00:54:52,559
horribly unqualified but but I but who's

1291
00:54:59,450 --> 00:54:55,800
qualified yeah right anyone with it so

1292
00:55:02,030 --> 00:54:59,460
let's go uh so uh so so either feeling

1293
00:55:03,950 --> 00:55:02,040
that yeah and and plenty of people have

1294
00:55:07,849 --> 00:55:03,960
said this before that that uh

1295
00:55:11,809 --> 00:55:07,859
Consciousness is what a type of

1296
00:55:15,849 --> 00:55:11,819
information flow feels like uh you know

1297
00:55:19,790 --> 00:55:15,859
more particularly I think it's what a uh

1298
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:19,800
a type of data structure feels like when

1299
00:55:25,130 --> 00:55:22,079
it tells itself a story about itself

1300
00:55:27,170 --> 00:55:25,140
yeah do you see a circularity there

1301
00:55:29,569 --> 00:55:27,180
because we're defining Consciousness in

1302
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:29,579
terms of so-and-so itself feels like and

1303
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:30,780
then the question is well what does it

1304
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:33,839
feel right right so the hard problem

1305
00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:37,200
let's let's uh let's solve it you know I

1306
00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:38,700
I have someone by the way who's

1307
00:55:43,730 --> 00:55:41,160
premiering in two hours from now named

1308
00:55:45,290 --> 00:55:43,740
Terence Deacon look at who he believes

1309
00:55:46,490 --> 00:55:45,300
he's solved the heart problem several

1310
00:55:47,690 --> 00:55:46,500
people believe they've solved the heart

1311
00:55:49,309 --> 00:55:47,700
problem and usually it means that

1312
00:55:52,010 --> 00:55:49,319
they've that they have a completely

1313
00:55:53,630 --> 00:55:52,020
different ontology oh I mean I'm looking

1314
00:55:55,010 --> 00:55:53,640
forward to watching it I'm gonna you're

1315
00:55:57,410 --> 00:55:55,020
not Terence Deacon have you heard of him

1316
00:56:00,109 --> 00:55:57,420
uh name's familiar but no he's a

1317
00:56:02,510 --> 00:56:00,119
linguist well he's a neuroanthropologist

1318
00:56:03,950 --> 00:56:02,520
and he studied under Chomsky he says he

1319
00:56:06,650 --> 00:56:03,960
disagrees with Chomsky about everything

1320
00:56:09,230 --> 00:56:06,660
except politics he's extremely extremely

1321
00:56:11,569 --> 00:56:09,240
bright and has an extreme what I call a

1322
00:56:13,609 --> 00:56:11,579
Velton it's an all-encompassing world

1323
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,619
view such that it's a framework through

1324
00:56:18,049 --> 00:56:15,119
which you interpret the world so it's

1325
00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:18,059
more than simply a world view it's this

1326
00:56:22,010 --> 00:56:20,280
philosophy that you have such that you

1327
00:56:23,569 --> 00:56:22,020
can pose virtually any question to

1328
00:56:25,549 --> 00:56:23,579
someone someone who has a belt on

1329
00:56:27,710 --> 00:56:25,559
showing and someone like say Sam Harris

1330
00:56:29,329 --> 00:56:27,720
or Jordan Peterson you can ask Jordan

1331
00:56:31,130 --> 00:56:29,339
Peterson a question about anything like

1332
00:56:33,290 --> 00:56:31,140
why do birds fly like that he would say

1333
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:33,300
it's because the edible mother he has a

1334
00:56:38,450 --> 00:56:35,819
framework I mean that can be a useful

1335
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:38,460
thing but don't you think in a way it is

1336
00:56:43,490 --> 00:56:42,240
being stuck in part of the landscape uh

1337
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:43,500
maybe a very useful part of the

1338
00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:44,880
landscape but

1339
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:46,680
um so right you mentioned it's extremely

1340
00:56:52,010 --> 00:56:49,440
useful yes so when you don't have one at

1341
00:56:54,530 --> 00:56:52,020
least like for myself it's a

1342
00:56:56,690 --> 00:56:54,540
destabilizing place to be you're in

1343
00:56:59,150 --> 00:56:56,700
constant you're tentative your

1344
00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:59,160
rudderless but you're also not kidding

1345
00:57:02,270 --> 00:57:00,000
yourself

1346
00:57:04,430 --> 00:57:02,280
well I don't I don't know

1347
00:57:06,770 --> 00:57:04,440
I I don't know because then that depends

1348
00:57:08,809 --> 00:57:06,780
on so does our model of reality create

1349
00:57:10,910 --> 00:57:08,819
reality so it doesn't mean that if you

1350
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:10,920
have a model it just is so there's

1351
00:57:15,470 --> 00:57:13,200
something called phenomenology so my

1352
00:57:19,069 --> 00:57:15,480
thought is that

1353
00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:21,290
I think it's clear that at some level

1354
00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:24,660
information that is undergoing a certain

1355
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:27,300
Dynamics

1356
00:57:31,069 --> 00:57:30,000
itself feels like something

1357
00:57:34,849 --> 00:57:31,079
um and

1358
00:57:37,549 --> 00:57:34,859
you know I I think it it is

1359
00:57:39,170 --> 00:57:37,559
maybe enough for that that data

1360
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:39,180
structure to

1361
00:57:43,569 --> 00:57:41,280
inspect itself

1362
00:57:47,390 --> 00:57:43,579
keep a story of itself

1363
00:57:49,309 --> 00:57:47,400
uh you know as it as it computes its way

1364
00:57:52,609 --> 00:57:49,319
to its next state and its next state and

1365
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:52,619
it next in its next state it it has it

1366
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:55,920
has this self-monitoring capability uh

1367
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:00,240
and and ends up

1368
00:58:04,430 --> 00:58:02,400
telling itself that it's conscious okay

1369
00:58:09,049 --> 00:58:04,440
because it it inspects its own

1370
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:09,059
inspection of itself uh add input item

1371
00:58:13,609 --> 00:58:11,520
um and so so

1372
00:58:14,690 --> 00:58:13,619
if

1373
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:14,700
um

1374
00:58:21,890 --> 00:58:17,520
you know if information can be conscious

1375
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:21,900
in some way and the universe is in at

1376
00:58:27,349 --> 00:58:24,720
least some sense informational it it can

1377
00:58:29,930 --> 00:58:27,359
be you know it can be thought to encode

1378
00:58:32,809 --> 00:58:29,940
information any particle encodes some

1379
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:32,819
type of information even if it's only

1380
00:58:38,510 --> 00:58:36,240
about its own existence then uh you can

1381
00:58:40,130 --> 00:58:38,520
imagine this spectrum of Consciousness

1382
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:40,140
uh

1383
00:58:45,650 --> 00:58:42,240
and so

1384
00:58:47,650 --> 00:58:45,660
the so bernardo's sort of

1385
00:58:52,190 --> 00:58:47,660
pan psychism

1386
00:58:55,970 --> 00:58:52,200
is

1387
00:58:56,930 --> 00:58:55,980
one in which he says that he says that

1388
00:58:59,210 --> 00:58:56,940
um

1389
00:59:02,990 --> 00:58:59,220
that the Consciousness is the most

1390
00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:03,000
fundamental element not the material

1391
00:59:09,710 --> 00:59:07,140
um I think you can be a pan psychist and

1392
00:59:13,250 --> 00:59:09,720
and not say that I think

1393
00:59:16,930 --> 00:59:13,260
we you know back to our discussion of

1394
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:16,940
dualities these you can have two

1395
00:59:20,690 --> 00:59:19,440
completely different stories about the

1396
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:20,700
world

1397
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:23,040
um and completely different mathematical

1398
00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:26,160
Frameworks for describing its Dynamics

1399
00:59:30,109 --> 00:59:29,160
but they are ultimately describing the

1400
00:59:32,569 --> 00:59:30,119
same thing

1401
00:59:35,089 --> 00:59:32,579
and I think that's the case with

1402
00:59:36,109 --> 00:59:35,099
Consciousness I think

1403
00:59:46,190 --> 00:59:36,119
um

1404
00:59:48,170 --> 00:59:46,200
uh which we we can't argue has it has

1405
00:59:50,270 --> 00:59:48,180
Consciousness and you start taking

1406
00:59:53,049 --> 00:59:50,280
things away you scale down its ability

1407
00:59:57,230 --> 00:59:53,059
to tell stories about itself to

1408
01:00:00,010 --> 00:59:57,240
self-inspect okay you can for example

1409
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:00,020
go on a Meditation Retreat and learn to

1410
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:04,079
be be purely in the moment and and

1411
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:07,319
only aware and and you can learn to

1412
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:09,839
suppress all of the chatter all of the

1413
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:12,180
internal dialogue you can suppress all

1414
01:00:18,170 --> 01:00:15,839
cognition uh you know essential periods

1415
01:00:20,690 --> 01:00:18,180
to a point where you are only perceiving

1416
01:00:22,970 --> 01:00:20,700
okay so you you still have a qualia

1417
01:00:27,289 --> 01:00:22,980
but you're not telling yourself a story

1418
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:27,299
about that about that you're just you're

1419
01:00:31,309 --> 01:00:28,799
essentially just

1420
01:00:33,470 --> 01:00:31,319
being the data structure that your brain

1421
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:33,480
has assembled about the outside world

1422
01:00:41,150 --> 01:00:34,799
without

1423
01:00:43,549 --> 01:00:41,160
that this is clearly it's clear that our

1424
01:00:46,730 --> 01:00:43,559
subjective worlds are informational okay

1425
01:00:47,809 --> 01:00:46,740
that all of this detail needs coded and

1426
01:00:52,370 --> 01:00:47,819
so

1427
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:52,380
is there anything special about that

1428
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:54,240
information structure that's just the

1429
01:01:00,049 --> 01:00:57,059
output of your you know visual cortex

1430
01:01:03,470 --> 01:01:00,059
etc etc that that you know presents you

1431
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:03,480
this this image of the visual world is

1432
01:01:09,230 --> 01:01:06,960
that data structure conscious uh or that

1433
01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:09,240
data structure plus your you know your

1434
01:01:13,609 --> 01:01:11,220
attention module which is

1435
01:01:17,089 --> 01:01:13,619
so so you can you can really pair things

1436
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:17,099
down so that you only have the the

1437
01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:20,400
minimum amounts that that you know you

1438
01:01:23,329 --> 01:01:21,960
can you can possibly have and still be a

1439
01:01:25,789 --> 01:01:23,339
person

1440
01:01:27,170 --> 01:01:25,799
um and it seems that that is still

1441
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:27,180
conscious

1442
01:01:30,770 --> 01:01:29,220
okay so what's what's the difference

1443
01:01:33,770 --> 01:01:30,780
then

1444
01:01:36,130 --> 01:01:33,780
to the data structure that represents

1445
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:36,140
your the the

1446
01:01:40,670 --> 01:01:38,640
uh the subjective world that your brain

1447
01:01:43,250 --> 01:01:40,680
assembled and

1448
01:01:45,770 --> 01:01:43,260
a data structure that contains similar

1449
01:01:47,329 --> 01:01:45,780
information that's not in a person well

1450
01:01:50,930 --> 01:01:47,339
the difference is that

1451
01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:50,940
it's not constantly telling itself a

1452
01:01:56,210 --> 01:01:53,220
story about what it says and it has no

1453
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,220
memory so if you if you I mean imagine

1454
01:02:00,289 --> 01:01:58,079
for example that the entire universe was

1455
01:02:01,789 --> 01:02:00,299
conscious and was aware of itself you

1456
01:02:03,770 --> 01:02:01,799
know it told oh that was a star that

1457
01:02:06,589 --> 01:02:03,780
exploded I just made a Galaxy

1458
01:02:09,230 --> 01:02:06,599
but then you take away that story and it

1459
01:02:10,609 --> 01:02:09,240
just is the data structure of all this

1460
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:10,619
stuff

1461
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:13,200
uh what will be the difference between

1462
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:15,920
just being Mata

1463
01:02:20,530 --> 01:02:18,480
unconscious matter and you know this

1464
01:02:23,809 --> 01:02:20,540
completely memoryless

1465
01:02:26,990 --> 01:02:23,819
uh you know conscious thing and my

1466
01:02:29,930 --> 01:02:27,000
argument is that there's no difference

1467
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:29,940
and the thing that has no memory or

1468
01:02:36,470 --> 01:02:32,880
capacity to self-inspect

1469
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:36,480
isn't really conscious but that at least

1470
01:02:41,329 --> 01:02:39,359
gives you a way to have a spectrum of

1471
01:02:43,970 --> 01:02:41,339
Consciousness like as soon as something

1472
01:02:46,130 --> 01:02:43,980
starts to have both a model of the world

1473
01:02:48,289 --> 01:02:46,140
and can tell itself a story about its

1474
01:02:50,750 --> 01:02:48,299
model of the world then it can start

1475
01:02:52,609 --> 01:02:50,760
telling itself it's conscious and and by

1476
01:02:54,829 --> 01:02:52,619
the way it's not that's not an illusion

1477
01:02:58,130 --> 01:02:54,839
the the whole idea that Consciousness is

1478
01:03:01,670 --> 01:02:58,140
an illusion I think is is as as bad a

1479
01:03:03,770 --> 01:03:01,680
fallacy as saying that the you know the

1480
01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:03,780
holographic principle bulk is an

1481
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:06,420
illusion and the boundary is not in that

1482
01:03:12,230 --> 01:03:10,079
case where the universe is conscious and

1483
01:03:13,970 --> 01:03:12,240
it's not conscious of anything you're

1484
01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:13,980
saying that it's as if there's two

1485
01:03:17,569 --> 01:03:15,540
states of Consciousness one that's about

1486
01:03:19,849 --> 01:03:17,579
something and then one that is just

1487
01:03:20,990 --> 01:03:19,859
conscious pure Consciousness and that's

1488
01:03:23,930 --> 01:03:21,000
something that you can access when

1489
01:03:28,510 --> 01:03:23,940
you're in meditation well I feel like

1490
01:03:33,410 --> 01:03:31,910
I think it's a poorly defined concept

1491
01:03:35,930 --> 01:03:33,420
uh it's

1492
01:03:37,849 --> 01:03:35,940
you know it it really emerges when we

1493
01:03:39,230 --> 01:03:37,859
get to start telling ourselves that we

1494
01:03:42,170 --> 01:03:39,240
have it

1495
01:03:44,690 --> 01:03:42,180
and and

1496
01:03:47,450 --> 01:03:44,700
you know we could we we can observe our

1497
01:03:49,309 --> 01:03:47,460
our own Consciousness because we are we

1498
01:03:51,470 --> 01:03:49,319
literally are part of

1499
01:03:54,289 --> 01:03:51,480
the data structure

1500
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:54,299
that this Consciousness is okay it's not

1501
01:03:58,490 --> 01:03:55,740
like we're

1502
01:04:00,829 --> 01:03:58,500
a separate you know homunculus observing

1503
01:04:03,410 --> 01:04:00,839
the the data structure that our brain

1504
01:04:06,049 --> 01:04:03,420
synthesize we are that data structure

1505
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:06,059
okay we that that literally is what we

1506
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:08,160
are and inside that data structure

1507
01:04:13,309 --> 01:04:10,559
there's a model of ourselves

1508
01:04:14,089 --> 01:04:13,319
okay which we can also inspect

1509
01:04:16,010 --> 01:04:14,099
um

1510
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:16,020
and so I think

1511
01:04:23,210 --> 01:04:17,940
uh

1512
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:23,220
Consciousness is just a it is in this

1513
01:04:26,510 --> 01:04:24,240
sense

1514
01:04:28,730 --> 01:04:26,520
an emergent phenomenon

1515
01:04:31,609 --> 01:04:28,740
but there's no

1516
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:31,619
no very hard line I I think for when it

1517
01:04:36,890 --> 01:04:34,079
emerges you know I'm I started all the

1518
01:04:42,170 --> 01:04:36,900
saying I'm no expert and and then

1519
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:42,180
gave you this super uh long treaties as

1520
01:04:46,789 --> 01:04:43,200
though

1521
01:04:49,849 --> 01:04:46,799
um I know anything but uh

1522
01:04:53,390 --> 01:04:49,859
this is the picture that fills the least

1523
01:04:55,309 --> 01:04:53,400
contradictory to me uh

1524
01:04:57,890 --> 01:04:55,319
so then in this view is there such a

1525
01:05:00,410 --> 01:04:57,900
thing as free will

1526
01:05:02,750 --> 01:05:00,420
in this view yes correct my

1527
01:05:04,309 --> 01:05:02,760
misunderstanding friend the way that I

1528
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:04,319
understand it is that there are some

1529
01:05:08,809 --> 01:05:06,720
atoms moving around and occasionally

1530
01:05:11,210 --> 01:05:08,819
that is something we call information

1531
01:05:12,829 --> 01:05:11,220
processing that information processing

1532
01:05:14,990 --> 01:05:12,839
is much like there's a lamp right here

1533
01:05:17,569 --> 01:05:15,000
that is casting onto the wall that wall

1534
01:05:19,609 --> 01:05:17,579
is now the feeling of Consciousness that

1535
01:05:21,950 --> 01:05:19,619
is is the effect and something is

1536
01:05:24,349 --> 01:05:21,960
happening here now that wall doesn't

1537
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,359
cause anything with this light the light

1538
01:05:27,530 --> 01:05:26,160
will move around right now it's

1539
01:05:30,289 --> 01:05:27,540
stationary but the light can change

1540
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:30,299
colors it can get brighter it can get

1541
01:05:34,190 --> 01:05:31,680
smashed on the ground and that wall

1542
01:05:36,349 --> 01:05:34,200
would change but I wouldn't say that

1543
01:05:37,069 --> 01:05:36,359
that wall has any causal influence on

1544
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:37,079
that

1545
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:41,760
sounds like there is no free will in

1546
01:05:45,370 --> 01:05:43,440
what has just been outlined so please

1547
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:45,380
correct my misunderstanding okay so

1548
01:05:51,710 --> 01:05:49,200
let's try to talk about Free Will so so

1549
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:51,720
first of all

1550
01:05:56,569 --> 01:05:54,960
um so Baja my partner she's a science

1551
01:05:59,630 --> 01:05:56,579
journalist and who's written a lot about

1552
01:06:03,470 --> 01:05:59,640
these topics uh I encourage you to check

1553
01:06:07,069 --> 01:06:03,480
out her article in the Atlantic which uh

1554
01:06:11,510 --> 01:06:07,079
to do thanks thanks nonsense on the

1555
01:06:13,849 --> 01:06:11,520
topic um but but she she always

1556
01:06:15,650 --> 01:06:13,859
reminds me to think about these things

1557
01:06:18,890 --> 01:06:15,660
in the context of their historical

1558
01:06:21,410 --> 01:06:18,900
development so so pre-enlightenment

1559
01:06:24,650 --> 01:06:21,420
there was this idea that Free Will and

1560
01:06:28,190 --> 01:06:24,660
meaning and mind were

1561
01:06:30,349 --> 01:06:28,200
um inextricably attached to Notions like

1562
01:06:32,510 --> 01:06:30,359
God and the immortal soul

1563
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:32,520
okay so when when those ideas started to

1564
01:06:38,089 --> 01:06:34,319
be questioned

1565
01:06:40,370 --> 01:06:38,099
was the same time that the materialist

1566
01:06:41,690 --> 01:06:40,380
Paradigm arose so the Newtonian world

1567
01:06:43,690 --> 01:06:41,700
view of

1568
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:43,700
you know

1569
01:06:48,289 --> 01:06:46,079
atoms is bouncing around in the void

1570
01:06:49,849 --> 01:06:48,299
perfectly predictable clock work so at

1571
01:06:52,010 --> 01:06:49,859
the same time that we discarded or

1572
01:06:56,809 --> 01:06:52,020
started to discard the spiritual

1573
01:07:01,130 --> 01:06:56,819
and in that Gap we inserted this sort of

1574
01:07:03,890 --> 01:07:01,140
very first and and and and perhaps naive

1575
01:07:07,510 --> 01:07:03,900
um mechanistic determinism

1576
01:07:10,010 --> 01:07:07,520
uh Notions like Free Will which were

1577
01:07:12,109 --> 01:07:10,020
conjoined with God and the Soul got

1578
01:07:15,470 --> 01:07:12,119
thrown out with the bath water and were

1579
01:07:19,309 --> 01:07:15,480
replaced by the idea that that these

1580
01:07:22,309 --> 01:07:19,319
things are Epi phenomena of over you

1581
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:22,319
know called mechanistic Universe

1582
01:07:33,170 --> 01:07:29,270
so that that's one crime what is is it's

1583
01:07:38,329 --> 01:07:33,180
a it's a a gripe with the what I think

1584
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:38,339
is an over simplification of the

1585
01:07:42,589 --> 01:07:41,039
um approach to to thinking about

1586
01:07:44,990 --> 01:07:42,599
free will but but all other things

1587
01:07:47,150 --> 01:07:45,000
related to the mind also

1588
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:47,160
um so so let me

1589
01:07:55,130 --> 01:07:51,680
explain why my view does and

1590
01:07:57,289 --> 01:07:55,140
uh suggest that Free Will is an illusion

1591
01:07:59,870 --> 01:07:57,299
um and so what does it mean it means

1592
01:08:01,910 --> 01:07:59,880
Free Will is means that you make your

1593
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:01,920
your choices are your own they're not

1594
01:08:05,210 --> 01:08:03,839
forced On You by something else

1595
01:08:07,549 --> 01:08:05,220
uh

1596
01:08:09,770 --> 01:08:07,559
and and for any choice you make you

1597
01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:09,780
could have chosen otherwise

1598
01:08:12,890 --> 01:08:11,640
and you know the standard argument is

1599
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:12,900
that

1600
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:18,960
you're made of okay you couldn't have

1601
01:08:23,450 --> 01:08:20,759
done it before is

1602
01:08:25,789 --> 01:08:23,460
so this is this this is the the argument

1603
01:08:26,689 --> 01:08:25,799
that you hear uh I won't mention any

1604
01:08:28,370 --> 01:08:26,699
names

1605
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:28,380
um because

1606
01:08:32,090 --> 01:08:30,000
you know you so you couldn't have chosen

1607
01:08:33,470 --> 01:08:32,100
otherwise because the whatever the exact

1608
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:33,480
position and velocity of all of your

1609
01:08:39,729 --> 01:08:37,440
subatomic particles uh set and how to

1610
01:08:42,050 --> 01:08:39,739
evolve according to the laws of physics

1611
01:08:43,610 --> 01:08:42,060
or that

1612
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:43,620
you know if that

1613
01:08:46,910 --> 01:08:45,359
you know if those particles have some

1614
01:08:49,309 --> 01:08:46,920
fundamental Randomness then the

1615
01:08:52,669 --> 01:08:49,319
randomness is still not free will

1616
01:08:55,729 --> 01:08:52,679
okay so that's the this argument

1617
01:08:58,249 --> 01:08:55,739
um and first of all let me say that that

1618
01:09:02,570 --> 01:08:58,259
you know that picture of physics is you

1619
01:09:05,390 --> 01:09:02,580
know it's right in a sense okay so I I

1620
01:09:07,550 --> 01:09:05,400
believe that that

1621
01:09:09,289 --> 01:09:07,560
subatomic particles evolve according to

1622
01:09:12,289 --> 01:09:09,299
The Showdown equation

1623
01:09:15,229 --> 01:09:12,299
Etc uh and the subatomic particles have

1624
01:09:16,610 --> 01:09:15,239
no idea that they're in a brain or that

1625
01:09:18,169 --> 01:09:16,620
they're part of a choice or they

1626
01:09:22,669 --> 01:09:18,179
represent a data structure that's part

1627
01:09:24,050 --> 01:09:22,679
of that that data structure feels uh as

1628
01:09:24,709 --> 01:09:24,060
part of a choice

1629
01:09:28,669 --> 01:09:24,719
um

1630
01:09:31,789 --> 01:09:28,679
but the problem with this reductionist

1631
01:09:35,570 --> 01:09:31,799
argument is that it's

1632
01:09:38,990 --> 01:09:35,580
it's messing up its definitions and in

1633
01:09:41,809 --> 01:09:39,000
particular it's definitions of causality

1634
01:09:43,010 --> 01:09:41,819
so if we think about

1635
01:09:45,470 --> 01:09:43,020
um

1636
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:45,480
the world is having these kind of layers

1637
01:09:49,450 --> 01:09:47,040
of complexity

1638
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:49,460
okay you have

1639
01:09:55,669 --> 01:09:53,520
physics driving the atoms and chemistry

1640
01:09:58,010 --> 01:09:55,679
driving the molecules in biology driving

1641
01:10:00,290 --> 01:09:58,020
the cells then you could you could say

1642
01:10:01,030 --> 01:10:00,300
something like so if you want to talk

1643
01:10:03,470 --> 01:10:01,040
about

1644
01:10:07,010 --> 01:10:03,480
causality here in terms of the

1645
01:10:09,470 --> 01:10:07,020
hierarchies of of emergence then you

1646
01:10:12,890 --> 01:10:09,480
could say that that quarks and electrons

1647
01:10:15,470 --> 01:10:12,900
cause atoms atoms cause molecules core

1648
01:10:18,290 --> 01:10:15,480
cells cells cause apples and brains and

1649
01:10:21,290 --> 01:10:18,300
brains cause Minds right

1650
01:10:23,570 --> 01:10:21,300
um but this is a type of causation and

1651
01:10:25,130 --> 01:10:23,580
it's it's like this cross hierarchical

1652
01:10:28,130 --> 01:10:25,140
causation

1653
01:10:30,830 --> 01:10:28,140
but I would argue that there's a real

1654
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:30,840
fundamental difference between that type

1655
01:10:37,070 --> 01:10:33,840
of causation to what you might call an

1656
01:10:39,410 --> 01:10:37,080
an intra-hierarchical causation that

1657
01:10:41,330 --> 01:10:39,420
defines the Dynamics within a given

1658
01:10:42,649 --> 01:10:41,340
layout can you give me an example all

1659
01:10:45,610 --> 01:10:42,659
right so

1660
01:10:52,370 --> 01:10:45,620
you can say that you know there's this

1661
01:10:55,189 --> 01:10:52,380
causal power whereby a cell is or say a

1662
01:10:56,689 --> 01:10:55,199
neuron is caused by the molecules that

1663
01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:56,699
it's formed of

1664
01:11:02,390 --> 01:10:59,280
um it is an Epi phenomenon of those

1665
01:11:05,330 --> 01:11:02,400
molecules which in turn are Epi

1666
01:11:09,290 --> 01:11:05,340
phenomena of their atoms Etc but it's

1667
01:11:12,350 --> 01:11:09,300
also entirely meaningful to say that

1668
01:11:16,910 --> 01:11:12,360
an action potential in a neuron

1669
01:11:19,310 --> 01:11:16,920
causes a downstream neuron to fire

1670
01:11:21,770 --> 01:11:19,320
right so that's that's a reasonable

1671
01:11:24,169 --> 01:11:21,780
statement okay and you're on Fires one

1672
01:11:26,750 --> 01:11:24,179
that's attached to fires and you can you

1673
01:11:29,270 --> 01:11:26,760
can and and it and it makes total sense

1674
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:29,280
and and in a real sense it's true to say

1675
01:11:33,169 --> 01:11:31,440
that the first neuron caused the firing

1676
01:11:34,930 --> 01:11:33,179
of the second

1677
01:11:38,930 --> 01:11:34,940
um it's

1678
01:11:41,810 --> 01:11:38,940
less useful to say that like

1679
01:11:44,570 --> 01:11:41,820
the wiggle of a Quantum string

1680
01:11:47,630 --> 01:11:44,580
on the Planck scale caused a downstream

1681
01:11:50,689 --> 01:11:47,640
neuron to fire even if the

1682
01:11:52,430 --> 01:11:50,699
even if the quantum string is the let's

1683
01:11:53,450 --> 01:11:52,440
call it the hierarchical cause of one of

1684
01:11:56,270 --> 01:11:53,460
the electrons in the first action

1685
01:11:59,090 --> 01:11:56,280
potential that's like a a roundabout and

1686
01:12:01,130 --> 01:11:59,100
relatively inane approach to talking

1687
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:01,140
about causation so there's this this

1688
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:05,280
kind of bottom-up causation in which

1689
01:12:12,709 --> 01:12:08,880
different levels in in

1690
01:12:16,810 --> 01:12:12,719
the scale of uh you know uh

1691
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:16,820
physical scale or complexity scale are

1692
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:20,640
generated by the the lower layers but

1693
01:12:26,330 --> 01:12:23,100
there's a different type of causation

1694
01:12:29,870 --> 01:12:26,340
within the layer okay so

1695
01:12:32,510 --> 01:12:29,880
um and and and within each of these

1696
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:32,520
hierarchical layers you have

1697
01:12:38,810 --> 01:12:36,480
a a dynamics that is in a sense

1698
01:12:41,630 --> 01:12:38,820
independent of

1699
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:41,640
the the layer below that generated it

1700
01:12:45,770 --> 01:12:43,679
okay so you can

1701
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:45,780
um you know I mentioned Bernoulli's

1702
01:12:51,530 --> 01:12:48,480
equation and fluid flow so you you have

1703
01:12:53,810 --> 01:12:51,540
this whole field of hydrodynamics which

1704
01:12:56,330 --> 01:12:53,820
is beautiful and in a sense it's

1705
01:12:59,450 --> 01:12:56,340
causally closed Like You can predict

1706
01:13:03,350 --> 01:12:59,460
anything about the behavior of fluids

1707
01:13:06,410 --> 01:13:03,360
using these rules and

1708
01:13:08,689 --> 01:13:06,420
it it does matter what the properties of

1709
01:13:09,950 --> 01:13:08,699
the the particles in that layer are and

1710
01:13:12,350 --> 01:13:09,960
those properties are the properties of

1711
01:13:14,090 --> 01:13:12,360
those particles are generated by the

1712
01:13:15,470 --> 01:13:14,100
layer below but once you know the

1713
01:13:19,130 --> 01:13:15,480
properties of those particles you don't

1714
01:13:21,950 --> 01:13:19,140
care about the the the detailed physics

1715
01:13:24,050 --> 01:13:21,960
of the the level below you you are you

1716
01:13:26,570 --> 01:13:24,060
are in that layer and the rules of that

1717
01:13:29,930 --> 01:13:26,580
layer are in a sense closed and

1718
01:13:32,030 --> 01:13:29,940
independent Okay so

1719
01:13:35,149 --> 01:13:32,040
so brains

1720
01:13:38,689 --> 01:13:35,159
have a dynamics of neural activity okay

1721
01:13:41,090 --> 01:13:38,699
it's a physical system they behave

1722
01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:41,100
like some type of neural network we can

1723
01:13:45,649 --> 01:13:43,260
we can even simulate it okay current

1724
01:13:49,010 --> 01:13:45,659
neural networks miss an awful lot but in

1725
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,970
run the the Dynamics of the brain with a

1726
01:13:56,930 --> 01:13:54,960
different substrate we can run them we

1727
01:14:00,890 --> 01:13:56,940
could run we one day probably will be

1728
01:14:04,550 --> 01:14:00,900
able to run these in silico and it and

1729
01:14:07,310 --> 01:14:04,560
that dynamical system the system of of

1730
01:14:09,050 --> 01:14:07,320
neural activity will be independent of

1731
01:14:13,610 --> 01:14:09,060
the substrate once we figure out what

1732
01:14:14,930 --> 01:14:13,620
that Dynamics is man Matt you oh the I

1733
01:14:17,570 --> 01:14:14,940
don't know if you realize we've seen

1734
01:14:19,610 --> 01:14:17,580
such controversial statements at at

1735
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:19,620
saying in principle so for instance you

1736
01:14:25,010 --> 01:14:21,600
see in principle we could simulate the

1737
01:14:26,270 --> 01:14:25,020
brain substrate Independence who knows I

1738
01:14:28,550 --> 01:14:26,280
mean well that's like a huge offer well

1739
01:14:29,750 --> 01:14:28,560
I'm I'm gonna understand I'm going to

1740
01:14:31,850 --> 01:14:29,760
crap all over the expression in

1741
01:14:34,370 --> 01:14:31,860
principle I think because

1742
01:14:36,590 --> 01:14:34,380
um so yeah who cares we're just talking

1743
01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:36,600
at people who are listening just realize

1744
01:14:40,490 --> 01:14:38,219
that none of us have the correct words

1745
01:14:42,169 --> 01:14:40,500
and in order for us to just in order for

1746
01:14:43,790 --> 01:14:42,179
us to convey anything that's non-trivial

1747
01:14:45,649 --> 01:14:43,800
we're going to have to flummox a

1748
01:14:46,910 --> 01:14:45,659
flounder okay well I'm happy I'm happy

1749
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,920
to put myself out there I think we will

1750
01:14:51,950 --> 01:14:48,480
be able to simulate the brain but it

1751
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:51,960
might be a really long time away because

1752
01:14:56,570 --> 01:14:54,480
there's so much

1753
01:14:58,370 --> 01:14:56,580
and and the point is that once we once

1754
01:15:01,490 --> 01:14:58,380
we figure out those Dynamics it'll be

1755
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:01,500
independent of the substrate silicon or

1756
01:15:08,390 --> 01:15:04,800
meat in the case all right so

1757
01:15:11,149 --> 01:15:08,400
maybe we can agree that that the

1758
01:15:13,669 --> 01:15:11,159
Dynamics within a layer are their own

1759
01:15:15,709 --> 01:15:13,679
thing they're they're in a it and and

1760
01:15:17,090 --> 01:15:15,719
the idea of cause within one of those

1761
01:15:20,209 --> 01:15:17,100
layers like

1762
01:15:22,430 --> 01:15:20,219
is different to the cause that generates

1763
01:15:24,770 --> 01:15:22,440
one layer from the layer below it okay

1764
01:15:26,770 --> 01:15:24,780
uh I see what you're saying okay okay so

1765
01:15:30,410 --> 01:15:26,780
you have you have you have this

1766
01:15:33,530 --> 01:15:30,420
dynamics of cause and effect

1767
01:15:38,209 --> 01:15:33,540
in you know in biology or in an

1768
01:15:40,370 --> 01:15:38,219
ecological system okay it's true that

1769
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:40,380
reintroducing wolves to the Yellowstone

1770
01:15:43,910 --> 01:15:42,000
National Park

1771
01:15:45,890 --> 01:15:43,920
caused

1772
01:15:47,810 --> 01:15:45,900
the deer population to be come under

1773
01:15:49,970 --> 01:15:47,820
control okay that's that's a totally

1774
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:49,980
meaningful statement and it would serve

1775
01:15:56,090 --> 01:15:52,800
to try to do the same thing with quarks

1776
01:15:59,570 --> 01:15:56,100
okay yes yes like Studios right so so

1777
01:16:02,450 --> 01:15:59,580
you have these these dynamical systems

1778
01:16:04,790 --> 01:16:02,460
where where and and the cause in that

1779
01:16:07,070 --> 01:16:04,800
sense is it is like we should have a

1780
01:16:08,750 --> 01:16:07,080
different word for it but

1781
01:16:11,209 --> 01:16:08,760
um so we're mixing our definitions of

1782
01:16:14,390 --> 01:16:11,219
the interest system versus the

1783
01:16:16,010 --> 01:16:14,400
inter-system causation

1784
01:16:17,810 --> 01:16:16,020
so we're still not we're still not at

1785
01:16:20,270 --> 01:16:17,820
Free Will yet so

1786
01:16:22,250 --> 01:16:20,280
um our conscious experience

1787
01:16:25,490 --> 01:16:22,260
may be emergent from the actions of our

1788
01:16:26,030 --> 01:16:25,500
neurons it probably is in some sense

1789
01:16:27,229 --> 01:16:26,040
um

1790
01:16:30,410 --> 01:16:27,239
but

1791
01:16:33,970 --> 01:16:30,420
in another sense it is dual to our the

1792
01:16:36,290 --> 01:16:33,980
actions of our neurons Okay so

1793
01:16:38,110 --> 01:16:36,300
the the

1794
01:16:42,290 --> 01:16:38,120
L

1795
01:16:44,870 --> 01:16:42,300
neurons have a Dynamics which you know

1796
01:16:45,950 --> 01:16:44,880
you can at some level explain their

1797
01:16:50,510 --> 01:16:45,960
behavior

1798
01:16:52,669 --> 01:16:50,520
but the uh

1799
01:16:55,130 --> 01:16:52,679
that and they generate this pattern of

1800
01:16:58,790 --> 01:16:55,140
information that's you know it tells a

1801
01:17:01,370 --> 01:16:58,800
story about itself Etc and and so

1802
01:17:05,030 --> 01:17:01,380
um in a way

1803
01:17:06,770 --> 01:17:05,040
our minds or or you know the description

1804
01:17:08,770 --> 01:17:06,780
of our minds is just another way of

1805
01:17:12,410 --> 01:17:08,780
casting

1806
01:17:14,510 --> 01:17:12,420
that it's that that is a you know it's

1807
01:17:18,649 --> 01:17:14,520
essentially a duality it is a dual to

1808
01:17:22,070 --> 01:17:18,659
that system but in a way you could argue

1809
01:17:26,149 --> 01:17:22,080
that it's more fundamental right so

1810
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:26,159
if in the broader sense our minds are

1811
01:17:31,370 --> 01:17:28,380
the result of a computation then then

1812
01:17:34,130 --> 01:17:31,380
our minds are also a dynamical system

1813
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:34,140
independent of the substrate

1814
01:17:40,910 --> 01:17:36,000
um so a set of elements in this case

1815
01:17:43,729 --> 01:17:40,920
thoughts linked by a set of rules uh and

1816
01:17:45,830 --> 01:17:43,739
you know and and thoughts a symbolic

1817
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:45,840
representations and so you can come up

1818
01:17:51,770 --> 01:17:49,920
with a a language that that

1819
01:17:53,390 --> 01:17:51,780
that manipulates these symbolic

1820
01:17:56,330 --> 01:17:53,400
representations and tells stories with

1821
01:17:59,930 --> 01:17:56,340
them okay that's you know in

1822
01:18:02,750 --> 01:17:59,940
uh sense kind of what what a mind is

1823
01:18:04,610 --> 01:18:02,760
um and a bunch of other stuff okay so in

1824
01:18:06,290 --> 01:18:04,620
a Sense Psychology is the science of

1825
01:18:09,410 --> 01:18:06,300
understanding the Dynamics of that

1826
01:18:12,410 --> 01:18:09,420
system and it's to some extent mappable

1827
01:18:15,110 --> 01:18:12,420
maybe never completely

1828
01:18:16,870 --> 01:18:15,120
um but it you know you but you you could

1829
01:18:20,030 --> 01:18:16,880
write down the Dynamics of the mind

1830
01:18:21,709 --> 01:18:20,040
without referencing neurons

1831
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:21,719
okay just as you could write down the

1832
01:18:24,649 --> 01:18:22,800
Dynamics of the neurons without

1833
01:18:28,189 --> 01:18:24,659
referencing electrons but and the reason

1834
01:18:29,470 --> 01:18:28,199
I said that that in a sense the the

1835
01:18:32,270 --> 01:18:29,480
uh

1836
01:18:33,709 --> 01:18:32,280
the way of looking at neurodynamics

1837
01:18:35,169 --> 01:18:33,719
which is the

1838
01:18:37,790 --> 01:18:35,179
the the The

1839
01:18:40,910 --> 01:18:37,800
Duel of it which is the subjective

1840
01:18:43,130 --> 01:18:40,920
experience is more predictively powerful

1841
01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:43,140
than the neurodynamics themselves in in

1842
01:18:47,090 --> 01:18:44,820
you know some way of looking at it

1843
01:18:48,770 --> 01:18:47,100
that's more fundamental

1844
01:18:52,910 --> 01:18:48,780
um there are things you can predict

1845
01:18:54,649 --> 01:18:52,920
about what a brain will do and and what

1846
01:18:59,209 --> 01:18:54,659
what an organism how an organism will

1847
01:19:03,709 --> 01:18:59,219
behave that you could only get by

1848
01:19:05,450 --> 01:19:03,719
looking at the uh the the thought

1849
01:19:08,149 --> 01:19:05,460
Dynamics like the mental Dynamics and

1850
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,159
you could never get by trying to look at

1851
01:19:12,290 --> 01:19:10,080
a few neurons and and guess what they're

1852
01:19:14,810 --> 01:19:12,300
going to do okay so is this not a

1853
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:14,820
difference between what we can do and

1854
01:19:18,050 --> 01:19:16,320
what is

1855
01:19:18,950 --> 01:19:18,060
I don't think so

1856
01:19:23,390 --> 01:19:18,960
um

1857
01:19:30,410 --> 01:19:25,189
all right so

1858
01:19:32,510 --> 01:19:30,420
so we so first of all mate let's uh

1859
01:19:35,810 --> 01:19:32,520
you know

1860
01:19:37,010 --> 01:19:35,820
put a pin in the idea that the mind is

1861
01:19:39,350 --> 01:19:37,020
this

1862
01:19:43,310 --> 01:19:39,360
its own dynamical system potentially

1863
01:19:45,290 --> 01:19:43,320
independent a bit substrate uh

1864
01:19:51,110 --> 01:19:45,300
and

1865
01:19:55,250 --> 01:19:51,120
Dynamics of neurons for for many many

1866
01:20:01,729 --> 01:19:59,390
does it mean does that mean uh that yeah

1867
01:20:04,610 --> 01:20:01,739
like you said it is the mind

1868
01:20:07,850 --> 01:20:04,620
is this just our impression that you

1869
01:20:09,290 --> 01:20:07,860
know it's we can't do this we we can't

1870
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:09,300
for example

1871
01:20:15,649 --> 01:20:13,260
predict someone else's detailed Behavior

1872
01:20:19,550 --> 01:20:15,659
you know uh their

1873
01:20:25,790 --> 01:20:23,209
fall in love with you know particular

1874
01:20:27,350 --> 01:20:25,800
Types of People based on looking at

1875
01:20:29,510 --> 01:20:27,360
their looking at their neurons or

1876
01:20:31,850 --> 01:20:29,520
looking at their quarks okay but but

1877
01:20:35,450 --> 01:20:31,860
okay so now we get to this idea of in

1878
01:20:38,570 --> 01:20:35,460
principle yeah okay is it

1879
01:20:40,910 --> 01:20:38,580
that's the title of the podcast

1880
01:20:44,450 --> 01:20:40,920
uh is it even

1881
01:20:49,430 --> 01:20:44,460
in principle possible to do so

1882
01:20:52,310 --> 01:20:49,440
um and I would argue they are also no

1883
01:20:54,890 --> 01:20:52,320
um it's in principle possible to predict

1884
01:20:58,189 --> 01:20:54,900
some human behavior by

1885
01:20:59,950 --> 01:20:58,199
trying to model the physical aspects of

1886
01:21:04,250 --> 01:20:59,960
the brain

1887
01:21:06,350 --> 01:21:04,260
but I don't think it's possible to uh

1888
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:06,360
so so here things get a little bit messy

1889
01:21:10,850 --> 01:21:08,880
so so you could predict someone's

1890
01:21:12,410 --> 01:21:10,860
Behavior just by knowing them well

1891
01:21:13,970 --> 01:21:12,420
does that mean they have no free will

1892
01:21:15,229 --> 01:21:13,980
that they couldn't potentially do

1893
01:21:16,490 --> 01:21:15,239
otherwise

1894
01:21:17,930 --> 01:21:16,500
uh

1895
01:21:19,930 --> 01:21:17,940
you could

1896
01:21:22,550 --> 01:21:19,940
predict someone's

1897
01:21:27,130 --> 01:21:22,560
inclination to certain types of behavior

1898
01:21:28,970 --> 01:21:27,140
by knowing you know about any

1899
01:21:32,870 --> 01:21:28,980
neuropathologies that they might have

1900
01:21:34,610 --> 01:21:32,880
okay so so for sure we aren't

1901
01:21:37,010 --> 01:21:34,620
uh

1902
01:21:39,770 --> 01:21:37,020
you know the epitome is a free will we

1903
01:21:41,390 --> 01:21:39,780
we often fail to exercise free will or

1904
01:21:44,090 --> 01:21:41,400
we are predictable

1905
01:21:48,350 --> 01:21:44,100
but the idea that

1906
01:21:50,630 --> 01:21:48,360
Free Will is an illusion because brains

1907
01:21:53,930 --> 01:21:50,640
are mechanistic I think is a little

1908
01:21:58,370 --> 01:21:53,940
fallacious and

1909
01:22:03,470 --> 01:22:01,370
so if a brain

1910
01:22:06,050 --> 01:22:03,480
because of that dual notion

1911
01:22:08,750 --> 01:22:06,060
well not not even I think we can go to

1912
01:22:13,669 --> 01:22:08,760
to physical here like there are physical

1913
01:22:16,910 --> 01:22:13,679
ish reasons here so so the brain

1914
01:22:18,770 --> 01:22:16,920
the idea is that that your actions are

1915
01:22:22,610 --> 01:22:18,780
predetermined and predictable because

1916
01:22:24,590 --> 01:22:22,620
the they're entirely determined by the

1917
01:22:27,350 --> 01:22:24,600
configuration of physical

1918
01:22:28,250 --> 01:22:27,360
matter and and so on

1919
01:22:31,790 --> 01:22:28,260
um

1920
01:22:34,850 --> 01:22:31,800
but but then you know I want to ask

1921
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:34,860
to whom is the brain predictable and

1922
01:22:39,890 --> 01:22:38,400
predetermined okay to what observer in

1923
01:22:41,990 --> 01:22:39,900
what reference frame

1924
01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:42,000
uh so if you have any sufficiently

1925
01:22:49,630 --> 01:22:47,760
complex system like the brain uh you the

1926
01:22:53,149 --> 01:22:49,640
Dynamics

1927
01:22:57,110 --> 01:22:53,159
are coupled across multiple physical

1928
01:22:58,550 --> 01:22:57,120
scales like so so

1929
01:23:02,810 --> 01:22:58,560
um

1930
01:23:03,890 --> 01:23:02,820
so for example uh a an important part of

1931
01:23:08,630 --> 01:23:03,900
the

1932
01:23:10,790 --> 01:23:08,640
so-called bryshark potential which is

1933
01:23:14,630 --> 01:23:10,800
just the the way the brain

1934
01:23:16,970 --> 01:23:14,640
uh it it's uh

1935
01:23:19,490 --> 01:23:16,980
basically the the correlated noise and

1936
01:23:21,709 --> 01:23:19,500
brain signal that the that the brain

1937
01:23:24,350 --> 01:23:21,719
actually uses to as a sort of a

1938
01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:24,360
tiebreaker in decision making

1939
01:23:28,070 --> 01:23:26,159
um and it and it partially drives the

1940
01:23:29,870 --> 01:23:28,080
Dynamics in ways that we don't very well

1941
01:23:31,550 --> 01:23:29,880
understand that all because it's super

1942
01:23:33,189 --> 01:23:31,560
new that we figured out but can you

1943
01:23:35,689 --> 01:23:33,199
repeat the name of the potential

1944
01:23:40,070 --> 01:23:35,699
it's the bryshark potential it's also

1945
01:23:43,070 --> 01:23:40,080
called the Readiness potential okay yeah

1946
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:43,080
uh and you you want to look at

1947
01:23:48,110 --> 01:23:43,920
um

1948
01:23:48,910 --> 01:23:48,120
Aaron Sugar's work uh and uh and

1949
01:23:51,830 --> 01:23:48,920
actually

1950
01:23:52,669 --> 01:23:51,840
Baja wrote an article on this I'm just

1951
01:23:54,470 --> 01:23:52,679
mentioning that because I'm super

1952
01:23:59,229 --> 01:23:54,480
familiar with it now but it's just one

1953
01:24:03,649 --> 01:23:59,239
example of uh how uh that you have

1954
01:24:06,110 --> 01:24:03,659
Dynamics influence in complex and even

1955
01:24:09,290 --> 01:24:06,120
pseudo chaotic systems you have these

1956
01:24:12,770 --> 01:24:09,300
Dynamics linked across you know multiple

1957
01:24:16,970 --> 01:24:12,780
scales of these hierarchies and

1958
01:24:19,630 --> 01:24:16,980
and in that case

1959
01:24:22,550 --> 01:24:19,640
it it becomes

1960
01:24:27,530 --> 01:24:22,560
essentially impossible to predict

1961
01:24:29,570 --> 01:24:27,540
Behavior based on the uh you know the

1962
01:24:31,910 --> 01:24:29,580
smallest piece that like the smallest

1963
01:24:33,950 --> 01:24:31,920
elements of the substrate whatever the

1964
01:24:35,689 --> 01:24:33,960
the the atoms

1965
01:24:38,450 --> 01:24:35,699
um and

1966
01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:38,460
okay so you have this you know system

1967
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:40,320
that that is in

1968
01:24:44,870 --> 01:24:43,440
you're partially chaotic uh and it's

1969
01:24:46,090 --> 01:24:44,880
well known that these things can't be

1970
01:24:47,770 --> 01:24:46,100
predicted by

1971
01:24:50,390 --> 01:24:47,780
without without

1972
01:24:52,610 --> 01:24:50,400
infinite computation okay I think I

1973
01:24:55,430 --> 01:24:52,620
think this is a manifestation of this

1974
01:24:57,530 --> 01:24:55,440
computational irreducibility also

1975
01:24:59,030 --> 01:24:57,540
um Okay so

1976
01:25:01,250 --> 01:24:59,040
Okay so

1977
01:25:04,669 --> 01:25:01,260
so my question is

1978
01:25:08,570 --> 01:25:04,679
what Observer or what reference frame

1979
01:25:09,709 --> 01:25:08,580
could predict your actions perfectly by

1980
01:25:12,290 --> 01:25:09,719
knowing

1981
01:25:14,209 --> 01:25:12,300
the exact state of all the quantum

1982
01:25:18,770 --> 01:25:14,219
fields in your brain

1983
01:25:20,530 --> 01:25:18,780
um so so you could you could imagine you

1984
01:25:24,050 --> 01:25:20,540
know some

1985
01:25:25,790 --> 01:25:24,060
uh super Advanced alien that could

1986
01:25:27,709 --> 01:25:25,800
somehow perfectly scan your brain and

1987
01:25:30,770 --> 01:25:27,719
get that and then run a simulation of

1988
01:25:34,250 --> 01:25:30,780
your brain at the same time but but even

1989
01:25:36,410 --> 01:25:34,260
that I think here like the very nature

1990
01:25:39,050 --> 01:25:36,420
of quantum mechanics makes that

1991
01:25:41,510 --> 01:25:39,060
challenging Okay so

1992
01:25:43,790 --> 01:25:41,520
so you literally need to track every bit

1993
01:25:45,709 --> 01:25:43,800
of quantum information in

1994
01:25:47,390 --> 01:25:45,719
the most complex systems to make a

1995
01:25:49,790 --> 01:25:47,400
perfect prediction okay so maybe you can

1996
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:49,800
make some predictions but it's not even

1997
01:25:56,330 --> 01:25:53,520
practically impossible it's in it's

1998
01:25:58,370 --> 01:25:56,340
probably even in principle impossible

1999
01:26:02,149 --> 01:25:58,380
okay so you you have things like the no

2000
01:26:03,770 --> 01:26:02,159
cloning theorem which forbids you from

2001
01:26:05,209 --> 01:26:03,780
making a perfect copy of quantum

2002
01:26:07,010 --> 01:26:05,219
information

2003
01:26:09,050 --> 01:26:07,020
um which is what you would need to do to

2004
01:26:10,850 --> 01:26:09,060
make a perfect prediction so

2005
01:26:14,090 --> 01:26:10,860
so

2006
01:26:20,990 --> 01:26:17,090
I think in a meaningful way it's

2007
01:26:25,310 --> 01:26:21,000
in principle not possible for any

2008
01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:25,320
possible Observer to perfectly predict

2009
01:26:32,270 --> 01:26:29,219
your choice okay it is possible for

2010
01:26:34,970 --> 01:26:32,280
impossible observers like laplace's

2011
01:26:36,410 --> 01:26:34,980
demon who knows the exact position and

2012
01:26:37,310 --> 01:26:36,420
velocity of every particle in the

2013
01:26:40,669 --> 01:26:37,320
universe

2014
01:26:42,649 --> 01:26:40,679
uh so from the perspective of laplace's

2015
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:42,659
demon you have no free will but

2016
01:26:48,590 --> 01:26:46,320
laplace's demon is a mythical entity

2017
01:26:56,450 --> 01:26:48,600
and

2018
01:26:58,910 --> 01:26:56,460
I don't think we should rate something

2019
01:27:02,209 --> 01:26:58,920
an illusion because a mythical entity

2020
01:27:04,550 --> 01:27:02,219
could in principle predict your

2021
01:27:06,050 --> 01:27:04,560
um your behavior so there's this guy

2022
01:27:07,970 --> 01:27:06,060
named David walpart I don't know if you

2023
01:27:09,649 --> 01:27:07,980
know him but he's in Santa Barbara I

2024
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:09,659
believe and he has the limits on

2025
01:27:13,490 --> 01:27:11,280
inference machines which says that even

2026
01:27:15,890 --> 01:27:13,500
lap class is demon in Newtonian

2027
01:27:17,810 --> 01:27:15,900
mechanics can't exist

2028
01:27:21,010 --> 01:27:17,820
I agree that laplace's demon cannot

2029
01:27:23,090 --> 01:27:21,020
exist I think even relativity forbids

2030
01:27:25,790 --> 01:27:23,100
laplace's demon because there's an

2031
01:27:27,290 --> 01:27:25,800
infant there's a there's a limit to how

2032
01:27:31,570 --> 01:27:27,300
quickly

2033
01:27:34,189 --> 01:27:31,580
it could anyway like this yeah yeah yeah

2034
01:27:37,010 --> 01:27:34,199
okay so you know so so you know long

2035
01:27:40,250 --> 01:27:37,020
story short I think Free Will is

2036
01:27:42,290 --> 01:27:40,260
real in a meaningful sense okay we're

2037
01:27:45,169 --> 01:27:42,300
like going down the definition of real

2038
01:27:47,810 --> 01:27:45,179
is like a whole other podcast but free

2039
01:27:52,490 --> 01:27:47,820
was real in a meaningful sense because

2040
01:27:53,870 --> 01:27:52,500
choice is a fundamental dynamical

2041
01:27:56,450 --> 01:27:53,880
component

2042
01:27:59,330 --> 01:27:56,460
in a particular dynamical system whose

2043
01:28:01,729 --> 01:27:59,340
behavior is independent of its substrate

2044
01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:01,739
and whose behavior is not

2045
01:28:07,430 --> 01:28:04,560
fully predictable in the context of its

2046
01:28:09,890 --> 01:28:07,440
substrates by by

2047
01:28:11,930 --> 01:28:09,900
mapping its substrates

2048
01:28:14,209 --> 01:28:11,940
um you know you know

2049
01:28:19,250 --> 01:28:14,219
in a way that is possible for any entity

2050
01:28:22,610 --> 01:28:21,169
but if you choose to not believe in free

2051
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:22,620
will then

2052
01:28:28,129 --> 01:28:24,960
at least you have that choice

2053
01:28:30,050 --> 01:28:28,139
yeah okay great well man there's so much

2054
01:28:31,970 --> 01:28:30,060
that we can talk about okay how about

2055
01:28:33,649 --> 01:28:31,980
instead of delving more deeply into I'll

2056
01:28:34,850 --> 01:28:33,659
just tell you the one thought I'll just

2057
01:28:37,790 --> 01:28:34,860
tell you one of the thoughts why is this

2058
01:28:40,850 --> 01:28:37,800
notion of to who imported for instance

2059
01:28:43,070 --> 01:28:40,860
we can say there is a computer here

2060
01:28:44,689 --> 01:28:43,080
when we consider that to be an objective

2061
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:44,699
fact we don't say this computer is here

2062
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:47,760
to who unless you are someone who

2063
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:49,920
believes that the Observer creates the

2064
01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:51,120
reality

2065
01:28:56,030 --> 01:28:53,880
so let's disregard that interpretation

2066
01:28:58,430 --> 01:28:56,040
say there's an objective reality so why

2067
01:29:00,590 --> 01:28:58,440
is it that we're saying Free Will exists

2068
01:29:03,649 --> 01:29:00,600
to who why can't we just say Free Will

2069
01:29:07,970 --> 01:29:03,659
exists in the same way that this

2070
01:29:13,430 --> 01:29:10,490
yeah I mean we live in a we live in a

2071
01:29:18,709 --> 01:29:13,440
relative Universe particles

2072
01:29:20,810 --> 01:29:18,719
have a relative existence you know uh uh

2073
01:29:22,970 --> 01:29:20,820
Hawking radiation

2074
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:22,980
only exists

2075
01:29:27,229 --> 01:29:24,719
if you're a certain distance away from a

2076
01:29:28,729 --> 01:29:27,239
black hole unreal radiation only exists

2077
01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:28,739
if you're

2078
01:29:37,250 --> 01:29:33,780
uh accelerating uh so so there I mean

2079
01:29:40,430 --> 01:29:37,260
there is a sense in which

2080
01:29:42,590 --> 01:29:40,440
um the frame of reference is is is

2081
01:29:45,770 --> 01:29:42,600
critical

2082
01:29:48,229 --> 01:29:45,780
um and for like non-noisy

2083
01:29:50,870 --> 01:29:48,239
so there's something noisy about the the

2084
01:29:52,370 --> 01:29:50,880
radiation and the unra radiation so the

2085
01:29:55,430 --> 01:29:52,380
Hawking radiation and that one yeah well

2086
01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:55,440
I think I think so maybe I I do I don't

2087
01:30:01,129 --> 01:29:56,940
know but there's there is something

2088
01:30:06,770 --> 01:30:01,139
non-trivial about the relativity of

2089
01:30:11,390 --> 01:30:09,050
um and

2090
01:30:13,550 --> 01:30:11,400
so I mean this is this is something I

2091
01:30:16,430 --> 01:30:13,560
don't think we've properly wrapped our

2092
01:30:18,290 --> 01:30:16,440
heads around you know maybe it's as

2093
01:30:19,729 --> 01:30:18,300
confusing as the measurement problem the

2094
01:30:21,290 --> 01:30:19,739
idea that

2095
01:30:23,510 --> 01:30:21,300
the universe

2096
01:30:25,669 --> 01:30:23,520
can look Canon does look radically

2097
01:30:27,290 --> 01:30:25,679
different depending on your frame of

2098
01:30:27,890 --> 01:30:27,300
reference

2099
01:30:32,390 --> 01:30:27,900
um

2100
01:30:34,910 --> 01:30:32,400
and the only thing that is consistent

2101
01:30:38,270 --> 01:30:34,920
is the self-consistency of the universe

2102
01:30:42,050 --> 01:30:38,280
itself it like no matter

2103
01:30:43,729 --> 01:30:42,060
what changes you know based on your

2104
01:30:46,669 --> 01:30:43,739
frame of reference

2105
01:30:50,270 --> 01:30:46,679
how you choose to make measurements

2106
01:30:52,970 --> 01:30:50,280
for example in you know things like a a

2107
01:30:55,310 --> 01:30:52,980
bell test

2108
01:30:57,470 --> 01:30:55,320
these these things radically can

2109
01:30:59,390 --> 01:30:57,480
radically change what the unit what

2110
01:31:01,729 --> 01:30:59,400
Universe you see

2111
01:31:04,850 --> 01:31:01,739
the the one thing that never change

2112
01:31:06,950 --> 01:31:04,860
changes is that

2113
01:31:09,169 --> 01:31:06,960
the universe remains self-consistent for

2114
01:31:11,330 --> 01:31:09,179
all Observers

2115
01:31:12,890 --> 01:31:11,340
okay can you explain what that means and

2116
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:12,900
it's that different than the statement

2117
01:31:17,689 --> 01:31:16,320
that the laws of physics are the same

2118
01:31:22,430 --> 01:31:17,699
um

2119
01:31:27,709 --> 01:31:24,649
well I mean the simple case of of

2120
01:31:33,410 --> 01:31:27,719
Relativity yeah like let's take the

2121
01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:33,420
simple case of the twin paradox where uh

2122
01:31:38,090 --> 01:31:35,760
so this is this for an experiment in

2123
01:31:42,530 --> 01:31:38,100
relativity where a pair of twins one

2124
01:31:44,450 --> 01:31:42,540
jumps in a spacecraft and Zips off at a

2125
01:31:45,530 --> 01:31:44,460
large fraction of the speed of light and

2126
01:31:48,350 --> 01:31:45,540
you know

2127
01:31:50,149 --> 01:31:48,360
hangs comes back several years later

2128
01:31:52,490 --> 01:31:50,159
from the perspective of between on at

2129
01:31:56,090 --> 01:31:52,500
home and

2130
01:31:58,850 --> 01:31:56,100
um the the twin at home has aged and the

2131
01:32:01,610 --> 01:31:58,860
twin who travel is much younger because

2132
01:32:02,870 --> 01:32:01,620
time ticked slower for the twin who was

2133
01:32:05,510 --> 01:32:02,880
traveling

2134
01:32:08,689 --> 01:32:05,520
um because of their relative speed

2135
01:32:12,229 --> 01:32:08,699
okay so from the point of view of the

2136
01:32:14,810 --> 01:32:12,239
the traveling twin they didn't think

2137
01:32:17,450 --> 01:32:14,820
that their clock was tickets

2138
01:32:19,850 --> 01:32:17,460
okay uh they you know they were looking

2139
01:32:22,250 --> 01:32:19,860
back home and they thought that at home

2140
01:32:24,470 --> 01:32:22,260
the Clock Was ticking fast and

2141
01:32:28,370 --> 01:32:24,480
um and from

2142
01:32:34,790 --> 01:32:31,550
no I should know this stuff

2143
01:32:36,649 --> 01:32:34,800
um so the the the so so so this is a

2144
01:32:40,310 --> 01:32:36,659
this is a

2145
01:32:41,709 --> 01:32:40,320
you should watch this PBS space time

2146
01:32:45,770 --> 01:32:41,719
yeah yeah

2147
01:32:48,410 --> 01:32:45,780
the the way it works is that that that

2148
01:32:50,270 --> 01:32:48,420
When You observe a clock that's

2149
01:32:52,729 --> 01:32:50,280
traveling at some speed that clock

2150
01:32:55,550 --> 01:32:52,739
appears to tick slow all right so so

2151
01:33:00,350 --> 01:32:55,560
fast moving objects the time slows down

2152
01:33:02,689 --> 01:33:00,360
so so both twins see each other's clock

2153
01:33:04,910 --> 01:33:02,699
as ticking slow all right because the

2154
01:33:07,610 --> 01:33:04,920
spaceship is moving fast but then for

2155
01:33:10,010 --> 01:33:07,620
the for the astronaut twin earth appears

2156
01:33:11,330 --> 01:33:10,020
to be moving backwards quickly because

2157
01:33:13,850 --> 01:33:11,340
you know

2158
01:33:15,950 --> 01:33:13,860
velocity speed is relative

2159
01:33:18,530 --> 01:33:15,960
there's no preferred inertial frame of

2160
01:33:21,470 --> 01:33:18,540
reference so if it races away that twins

2161
01:33:24,530 --> 01:33:21,480
clock seems to slow down and yet when

2162
01:33:26,090 --> 01:33:24,540
the twin gets back home after that long

2163
01:33:28,970 --> 01:33:26,100
trip

2164
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:28,980
the the twin who stayed at her so it has

2165
01:33:32,750 --> 01:33:30,480
to end up being consistent which one

2166
01:33:35,030 --> 01:33:32,760
aged more than the other and the answer

2167
01:33:37,129 --> 01:33:35,040
is that there is an answer that there is

2168
01:33:39,110 --> 01:33:37,139
a self-consistent answer when they get

2169
01:33:41,810 --> 01:33:39,120
home both of them agree that the twin

2170
01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:41,820
who stayed home aged more

2171
01:33:46,550 --> 01:33:44,940
but how can that work if both of them

2172
01:33:49,070 --> 01:33:46,560
saw the same change in each other's

2173
01:33:51,169 --> 01:33:49,080
clock and

2174
01:33:52,910 --> 01:33:51,179
they both of the twins have an answer

2175
01:33:55,550 --> 01:33:52,920
for that

2176
01:33:58,430 --> 01:33:55,560
and their answers are different but they

2177
01:34:00,490 --> 01:33:58,440
lead to the same conclusion okay the

2178
01:34:02,030 --> 01:34:00,500
twins at home

2179
01:34:05,149 --> 01:34:02,040
sees

2180
01:34:07,070 --> 01:34:05,159
the traveling twins clock tick slower

2181
01:34:10,729 --> 01:34:07,080
and so that the traveling between ages

2182
01:34:13,310 --> 01:34:10,739
less okay and and gets home meanwhile

2183
01:34:15,649 --> 01:34:13,320
the one at home is waiting and and

2184
01:34:18,470 --> 01:34:15,659
getting older and his twin comes back

2185
01:34:21,129 --> 01:34:18,480
much younger okay because the less time

2186
01:34:24,729 --> 01:34:21,139
passed but for the traveling twin

2187
01:34:28,729 --> 01:34:24,739
they watch the the the the twin at home

2188
01:34:31,790 --> 01:34:28,739
uh and and they watch the the twin at

2189
01:34:33,470 --> 01:34:31,800
home's clock tick slower so in fact the

2190
01:34:36,410 --> 01:34:33,480
traveling twin feels themselves aging

2191
01:34:39,470 --> 01:34:36,420
Lassa aging faster

2192
01:34:41,689 --> 01:34:39,480
until the moment that they turn around

2193
01:34:44,750 --> 01:34:41,699
okay so in order to turn around and come

2194
01:34:48,169 --> 01:34:44,760
home they have to accelerate

2195
01:34:50,450 --> 01:34:48,179
and the other thing that Einstein's

2196
01:34:53,330 --> 01:34:50,460
relativity tells us is that if you are

2197
01:34:54,770 --> 01:34:53,340
deep in a gravitational field your clock

2198
01:34:59,030 --> 01:34:54,780
ticks slower

2199
01:35:01,850 --> 01:34:59,040
okay so the amount that that twin has to

2200
01:35:05,990 --> 01:35:01,860
accelerate in order to return home

2201
01:35:08,750 --> 01:35:06,000
causes their clock to slow down enough

2202
01:35:11,209 --> 01:35:08,760
that that from their perspective

2203
01:35:13,729 --> 01:35:11,219
between who is at home

2204
01:35:16,250 --> 01:35:13,739
not only caught up to them but aged a

2205
01:35:18,590 --> 01:35:16,260
lot more okay yeah they both have

2206
01:35:19,669 --> 01:35:18,600
different stories about why

2207
01:35:23,570 --> 01:35:19,679
um

2208
01:35:25,669 --> 01:35:23,580
why they both agree that the traveling

2209
01:35:27,590 --> 01:35:25,679
twin is younger than the the

2210
01:35:32,030 --> 01:35:27,600
stay-at-home twin

2211
01:35:37,790 --> 01:35:34,910
Kurt how did we get to this so this was

2212
01:35:40,550 --> 01:35:37,800
in service of a point

2213
01:35:42,350 --> 01:35:40,560
okay so firstly I was asking about what

2214
01:35:44,570 --> 01:35:42,360
does it mean to be self-consistent oh

2215
01:35:47,090 --> 01:35:44,580
yeah yeah so that so the universe will

2216
01:35:49,090 --> 01:35:47,100
always conspire to be self-consistent

2217
01:35:51,890 --> 01:35:49,100
and and and that

2218
01:35:54,169 --> 01:35:51,900
uh observers will

2219
01:35:58,310 --> 01:35:54,179
you know ultimately agree

2220
01:36:01,910 --> 01:36:00,229
I have so many questions here that's

2221
01:36:03,770 --> 01:36:01,920
even the case that's even the kids with

2222
01:36:05,629 --> 01:36:03,780
particles like uh if you if you see

2223
01:36:07,669 --> 01:36:05,639
unreal radiation I don't know what the

2224
01:36:08,870 --> 01:36:07,679
solution to this one is

2225
01:36:10,970 --> 01:36:08,880
um

2226
01:36:12,830 --> 01:36:10,980
someone else doesn't see under radiation

2227
01:36:14,990 --> 01:36:12,840
but they see

2228
01:36:18,010 --> 01:36:15,000
yeah it's like if you if you accelerate

2229
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:18,020
fast enough then you'll you'll be

2230
01:36:23,090 --> 01:36:20,400
incinerated by what what's the

2231
01:36:24,470 --> 01:36:23,100
equivalent of Hawking Recreation it's a

2232
01:36:25,310 --> 01:36:24,480
type of horizon radiation you'll be in

2233
01:36:31,010 --> 01:36:25,320
but

2234
01:36:34,189 --> 01:36:31,020
someone who is not accelerating

2235
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:34,199
doesn't see your unrew particles

2236
01:36:41,090 --> 01:36:38,159
and yet does see you incinerated

2237
01:36:43,490 --> 01:36:41,100
so why does the the person who's not

2238
01:36:45,470 --> 01:36:43,500
accelerating CU incinerated I think the

2239
01:36:48,709 --> 01:36:45,480
answer is

2240
01:36:50,270 --> 01:36:48,719
you they see you being incinerated by

2241
01:36:52,070 --> 01:36:50,280
something else like the drag on the

2242
01:36:54,530 --> 01:36:52,080
quantum fields or something I

2243
01:36:56,629 --> 01:36:54,540
I I don't recall but but there was a

2244
01:36:58,010 --> 01:36:56,639
there's a neat answer to it like the

2245
01:37:01,070 --> 01:36:58,020
universe keeps conspiring to give us

2246
01:37:04,010 --> 01:37:01,080
these neat answers that everyone

2247
01:37:06,430 --> 01:37:04,020
ultimately is going to agree even if the

2248
01:37:08,750 --> 01:37:06,440
universe that they

2249
01:37:10,250 --> 01:37:08,760
think they live in looks wildly

2250
01:37:14,149 --> 01:37:10,260
different to the universe of the next

2251
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,159
person the the consist the consistency

2252
01:37:18,110 --> 01:37:16,800
conspires to always be there

2253
01:37:20,570 --> 01:37:18,120
um and I think there's a mystery there

2254
01:37:23,149 --> 01:37:20,580
and I don't know what okay so Matt

2255
01:37:25,729 --> 01:37:23,159
a couple questions occurred to me so one

2256
01:37:27,410 --> 01:37:25,739
when we use the word self-consistent to

2257
01:37:29,030 --> 01:37:27,420
apply to the universe I mean why can't

2258
01:37:30,830 --> 01:37:29,040
we just remove the word itself and say

2259
01:37:33,470 --> 01:37:30,840
the universe is consistent so that's

2260
01:37:34,850 --> 01:37:33,480
number one and then number two what

2261
01:37:37,550 --> 01:37:34,860
would it look like if there was

2262
01:37:38,990 --> 01:37:37,560
inconsistency does it mean that there'd

2263
01:37:40,669 --> 01:37:39,000
be disagreement between us because there

2264
01:37:41,750 --> 01:37:40,679
already is disagreement and then if

2265
01:37:44,750 --> 01:37:41,760
we're saying it's no scientific

2266
01:37:46,669 --> 01:37:44,760
inconsistency well then science bites

2267
01:37:48,050 --> 01:37:46,679
Nature's intersubjective agreement which

2268
01:37:50,030 --> 01:37:48,060
means we've had disagreements we've

2269
01:37:51,950 --> 01:37:50,040
pushed on the side and so it's like

2270
01:37:54,709 --> 01:37:51,960
saying we agree because I've removed the

2271
01:37:57,050 --> 01:37:54,719
disagreements so why do we use the word

2272
01:37:59,330 --> 01:37:57,060
self-consistent secondly

2273
01:38:01,010 --> 01:37:59,340
we what the heck would it ever look like

2274
01:38:03,709 --> 01:38:01,020
to be inconsistent

2275
01:38:05,570 --> 01:38:03,719
right so by self-consistent I mean

2276
01:38:08,510 --> 01:38:05,580
internally consistent

2277
01:38:10,850 --> 01:38:08,520
um which means that I mean you you can

2278
01:38:12,649 --> 01:38:10,860
imagine consistency is in consistent

2279
01:38:14,330 --> 01:38:12,659
with someone's beliefs about what the

2280
01:38:15,590 --> 01:38:14,340
universe should be but that's not the

2281
01:38:19,790 --> 01:38:15,600
case

2282
01:38:23,390 --> 01:38:19,800
um and the universe when you know to for

2283
01:38:25,610 --> 01:38:23,400
carefully made measurements and and it

2284
01:38:27,950 --> 01:38:25,620
is always

2285
01:38:29,990 --> 01:38:27,960
but always obeys its own rules

2286
01:38:33,229 --> 01:38:30,000
but the the particular rule that it

2287
01:38:35,450 --> 01:38:33,239
seems to be obeying may be different for

2288
01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:35,460
one Observer or another but but all

2289
01:38:40,189 --> 01:38:37,260
observers will obey

2290
01:38:43,189 --> 01:38:40,199
we'll all see that the universe

2291
01:38:44,149 --> 01:38:43,199
obeys its rules its own rules

2292
01:38:49,490 --> 01:38:44,159
um

2293
01:38:51,350 --> 01:38:49,500
so in the example of the twin paradox

2294
01:39:08,270 --> 01:38:51,360
the

2295
01:39:10,010 --> 01:39:08,280
dilation due to you know acceleration by

2296
01:39:13,070 --> 01:39:10,020
the equivalence principle General

2297
01:39:16,250 --> 01:39:13,080
activity at least in one's way of

2298
01:39:19,629 --> 01:39:16,260
framing that Paradox um in in the case

2299
01:39:23,229 --> 01:39:19,639
of the unru radiation uh they everyone

2300
01:39:27,050 --> 01:39:23,239
everyone sees the accelerating person ex

2301
01:39:28,669 --> 01:39:27,060
incinerate okay and so it's not like one

2302
01:39:34,010 --> 01:39:28,679
person

2303
01:39:36,229 --> 01:39:34,020
sees them and then accelerate it okay so

2304
01:39:39,709 --> 01:39:36,239
which would lead to a paradox okay so

2305
01:39:41,390 --> 01:39:39,719
the universe never generates paradoxes

2306
01:39:44,689 --> 01:39:41,400
it

2307
01:39:46,729 --> 01:39:44,699
always you you will always find that

2308
01:39:48,290 --> 01:39:46,739
that it has

2309
01:39:51,470 --> 01:39:48,300
obeyed

2310
01:39:55,610 --> 01:39:51,480
its own you know it's its laws of nature

2311
01:39:57,350 --> 01:39:55,620
uh if it doesn't then it it's us who

2312
01:40:00,290 --> 01:39:57,360
haven't figured out the right laws of

2313
01:40:01,250 --> 01:40:00,300
nature but but the thing is to observers

2314
01:40:03,229 --> 01:40:01,260
me

2315
01:40:05,510 --> 01:40:03,239
see it doing that in different ways and

2316
01:40:09,169 --> 01:40:05,520
the the original example of this is is

2317
01:40:10,189 --> 01:40:09,179
good old electromagnetism where

2318
01:40:13,070 --> 01:40:10,199
um

2319
01:40:15,290 --> 01:40:13,080
you know a a moving electric charge

2320
01:40:16,910 --> 01:40:15,300
generates a magnetic field

2321
01:40:19,669 --> 01:40:16,920
um but we know that motion is relative

2322
01:40:21,470 --> 01:40:19,679
so if you're if you're moving with the

2323
01:40:24,169 --> 01:40:21,480
electric charge

2324
01:40:26,870 --> 01:40:24,179
you should see no magnetic field but

2325
01:40:30,050 --> 01:40:26,880
that magnetic field has an effect okay

2326
01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:30,060
if it causes other charged particles to

2327
01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:30,960
move

2328
01:40:36,830 --> 01:40:33,600
um and and so that it would be

2329
01:40:38,510 --> 01:40:36,840
inconsistent if one person saw a moving

2330
01:40:40,970 --> 01:40:38,520
charge particle generate a magnetic

2331
01:40:44,629 --> 01:40:40,980
field and the effect of that magnetic

2332
01:40:46,430 --> 01:40:44,639
field you know resulting in the motion

2333
01:40:48,470 --> 01:40:46,440
of yet more particles

2334
01:40:51,649 --> 01:40:48,480
and person traveling with the magnetic

2335
01:40:54,110 --> 01:40:51,659
field sees that sees no such thing that

2336
01:40:55,370 --> 01:40:54,120
would be an inconsistency and a paradox

2337
01:40:56,930 --> 01:40:55,380
in a sense

2338
01:40:58,550 --> 01:40:56,940
um because

2339
01:40:59,870 --> 01:40:58,560
there would be an irreconcilable

2340
01:41:01,250 --> 01:40:59,880
disagreement

2341
01:41:04,850 --> 01:41:01,260
um about their observations but there

2342
01:41:07,209 --> 01:41:04,860
are but the reality is that

2343
01:41:11,510 --> 01:41:07,219
um the person traveling with the charge

2344
01:41:14,770 --> 01:41:11,520
does see a force on the uh surrounding

2345
01:41:17,510 --> 01:41:14,780
particles but to them they they would

2346
01:41:20,930 --> 01:41:17,520
argue that the force was from the

2347
01:41:23,390 --> 01:41:20,940
electrostatic build which is the force

2348
01:41:26,149 --> 01:41:23,400
that that you know the the

2349
01:41:29,450 --> 01:41:26,159
right so so the so that's an example but

2350
01:41:31,310 --> 01:41:29,460
that but nonetheless the universe has

2351
01:41:33,950 --> 01:41:31,320
obeyed its own rules

2352
01:41:36,290 --> 01:41:33,960
it's just the different observers would

2353
01:41:37,430 --> 01:41:36,300
disagree on which rule which rules did

2354
01:41:40,310 --> 01:41:37,440
obeyed

2355
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:40,320
um and and no Paradox is interesting so

2356
01:41:44,689 --> 01:41:42,239
that's what I mean by that

2357
01:41:47,030 --> 01:41:44,699
um what was the what would it look like

2358
01:41:50,209 --> 01:41:47,040
to be inconsistent and then also when I

2359
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:50,219
when we say that the world is consistent

2360
01:41:53,390 --> 01:41:51,840
like I mentioned we do have

2361
01:41:55,790 --> 01:41:53,400
disagreements and there is such a thing

2362
01:41:57,890 --> 01:41:55,800
as someone seeing something that you did

2363
01:42:00,169 --> 01:41:57,900
not see and we generally consider those

2364
01:42:02,209 --> 01:42:00,179
to be mental illnesses but I'm sure

2365
01:42:04,129 --> 01:42:02,219
there exists other cases that are not so

2366
01:42:06,770 --> 01:42:04,139
extreme though I can't though none come

2367
01:42:08,629 --> 01:42:06,780
to mind and in which case would that be

2368
01:42:10,310 --> 01:42:08,639
in like science we'd say well

2369
01:42:12,530 --> 01:42:10,320
scientifically and so on like I

2370
01:42:14,090 --> 01:42:12,540
mentioned you just remove the qualities

2371
01:42:15,950 --> 01:42:14,100
that we dislike and we say they have no

2372
01:42:21,109 --> 01:42:15,960
qualities we dislike

2373
01:42:23,510 --> 01:42:21,119
yeah I mean ultimately to to test uh to

2374
01:42:26,810 --> 01:42:23,520
test consistency

2375
01:42:29,510 --> 01:42:26,820
the the result from both observers has

2376
01:42:31,669 --> 01:42:29,520
to come back to one Observer so so so

2377
01:42:34,010 --> 01:42:31,679
you one Observer needs to test the

2378
01:42:35,750 --> 01:42:34,020
consistency and

2379
01:42:39,830 --> 01:42:35,760
um that

2380
01:42:41,510 --> 01:42:39,840
consistency check would be that

2381
01:42:44,090 --> 01:42:41,520
ultimately all of the incoming

2382
01:42:46,250 --> 01:42:44,100
information agrees

2383
01:42:50,570 --> 01:42:46,260
um like

2384
01:42:54,109 --> 01:42:50,580
uh so in the twin paradox both of them

2385
01:42:56,090 --> 01:42:54,119
agree that the stay-at-home twin aged

2386
01:42:58,129 --> 01:42:56,100
and the asteroid twin

2387
01:42:59,330 --> 01:42:58,139
uh stayed Young

2388
01:43:01,250 --> 01:42:59,340
but

2389
01:43:03,169 --> 01:43:01,260
you know they they won't know that until

2390
01:43:06,709 --> 01:43:03,179
they talk to each other about it and and

2391
01:43:08,270 --> 01:43:06,719
then each of them independently

2392
01:43:11,570 --> 01:43:08,280
has

2393
01:43:14,890 --> 01:43:11,580
a self-consistent model of the world oh

2394
01:43:20,030 --> 01:43:14,900
my brother returned

2395
01:43:23,330 --> 01:43:20,040
and is younger to my vision

2396
01:43:25,970 --> 01:43:23,340
and also tells me that

2397
01:43:30,709 --> 01:43:25,980
they agree with that assessment okay so

2398
01:43:33,050 --> 01:43:30,719
so if your your brother came back and

2399
01:43:35,870 --> 01:43:33,060
told you that

2400
01:43:37,850 --> 01:43:35,880
wait no I

2401
01:43:39,350 --> 01:43:37,860
feel myself as being old and you look

2402
01:43:42,830 --> 01:43:39,360
young then that would be an

2403
01:43:45,649 --> 01:43:42,840
inconsistency okay so the data

2404
01:43:47,270 --> 01:43:45,659
that that's coming into your your head

2405
01:43:51,770 --> 01:43:47,280
has to

2406
01:43:55,790 --> 01:43:51,780
and it should line up and maybe this is

2407
01:43:56,330 --> 01:43:55,800
just an axiom of of science that that

2408
01:43:59,209 --> 01:43:56,340
um

2409
01:44:01,490 --> 01:43:59,219
that the universe is internally

2410
01:44:03,530 --> 01:44:01,500
consistent or self-consistent and I

2411
01:44:08,330 --> 01:44:03,540
think it you know it's reasonable to say

2412
01:44:12,709 --> 01:44:08,340
that it is one of the axions that we

2413
01:44:14,689 --> 01:44:12,719
just have to start with but it it is

2414
01:44:17,689 --> 01:44:14,699
stunning how

2415
01:44:21,470 --> 01:44:17,699
the the range of circumstances where it

2416
01:44:23,810 --> 01:44:21,480
demonstrates itself to be correct in

2417
01:44:26,209 --> 01:44:23,820
ways that you know the number of

2418
01:44:30,290 --> 01:44:26,219
paradoxes seeming paradoxes that have

2419
01:44:35,030 --> 01:44:30,300
Arisen and have not had a clear solution

2420
01:44:36,770 --> 01:44:35,040
but in fallibly a solution appears

2421
01:44:38,870 --> 01:44:36,780
okay speaking of consistency does

2422
01:44:42,050 --> 01:44:38,880
girdle's incompleteness theorem have

2423
01:44:44,870 --> 01:44:42,060
anything to say about physics or the POS

2424
01:44:48,050 --> 01:44:44,880
the existence of a toe yeah it sure

2425
01:44:50,270 --> 01:44:48,060
feels like it should doesn't it you know

2426
01:44:55,970 --> 01:44:53,689
How does it go again no

2427
01:44:58,129 --> 01:44:55,980
system of axions either no

2428
01:44:59,570 --> 01:44:58,139
self-consistent system of axions no

2429
01:45:00,950 --> 01:44:59,580
formal language

2430
01:45:06,050 --> 01:45:00,960
uh

2431
01:45:09,290 --> 01:45:06,060
and prove all of the truths

2432
01:45:11,510 --> 01:45:09,300
that it can represent yeah there always

2433
01:45:13,310 --> 01:45:11,520
exist at least one truth that's

2434
01:45:15,050 --> 01:45:13,320
unprovable from the set of axioms if

2435
01:45:18,050 --> 01:45:15,060
it's consistent and it's strong enough

2436
01:45:20,090 --> 01:45:18,060
to encode the the basic arithmetic that

2437
01:45:24,470 --> 01:45:20,100
we take for granted

2438
01:45:28,010 --> 01:45:26,390
I I would say

2439
01:45:29,030 --> 01:45:28,020
maybe

2440
01:45:35,209 --> 01:45:29,040
um

2441
01:45:36,649 --> 01:45:35,219
there is a ground truth to reality that

2442
01:45:37,390 --> 01:45:36,659
there is a

2443
01:45:42,590 --> 01:45:37,400
a

2444
01:45:44,870 --> 01:45:42,600
um

2445
01:45:46,250 --> 01:45:44,880
explains

2446
01:45:50,149 --> 01:45:46,260
why there's something rather than

2447
01:45:51,590 --> 01:45:50,159
nothing why it behaves the way it does

2448
01:45:58,669 --> 01:45:51,600
etc etc

2449
01:46:03,830 --> 01:46:01,910
in in any formal language that we can

2450
01:46:06,050 --> 01:46:03,840
come up with including math

2451
01:46:07,669 --> 01:46:06,060
there's no guarantee that

2452
01:46:12,530 --> 01:46:07,679
that

2453
01:46:14,270 --> 01:46:12,540
is provable because there are always

2454
01:46:16,010 --> 01:46:14,280
some that are not

2455
01:46:18,729 --> 01:46:16,020
um

2456
01:46:21,649 --> 01:46:18,739
but yeah I don't see it as a reason to

2457
01:46:22,370 --> 01:46:21,659
be too despondent

2458
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:22,380
um

2459
01:46:28,250 --> 01:46:26,400
because if a uh

2460
01:46:31,189 --> 01:46:28,260
a truth is not provable in one formal

2461
01:46:33,050 --> 01:46:31,199
system then it may be in others

2462
01:46:34,729 --> 01:46:33,060
um

2463
01:46:38,689 --> 01:46:34,739
and

2464
01:46:42,350 --> 01:46:38,699
yeah yeah so I I'd say I'd say the the

2465
01:46:44,450 --> 01:46:42,360
the the risk more is that

2466
01:46:46,870 --> 01:46:44,460
um we

2467
01:46:50,390 --> 01:46:46,880
either that

2468
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:50,400
singular ground truth doesn't exist okay

2469
01:46:55,990 --> 01:46:54,719
so it it may really be that that there's

2470
01:47:00,350 --> 01:46:56,000
this sort of

2471
01:47:03,770 --> 01:47:00,360
relativity of Frameworks and there's no

2472
01:47:07,430 --> 01:47:03,780
singular framework in which we can

2473
01:47:10,609 --> 01:47:07,440
Express the the sort of what people have

2474
01:47:13,330 --> 01:47:10,619
you know wanted to find this the idea of

2475
01:47:17,870 --> 01:47:13,340
this final theory that

2476
01:47:20,030 --> 01:47:17,880
that there's you know in a sense no

2477
01:47:21,530 --> 01:47:20,040
ultimate theoretical ground beneath our

2478
01:47:22,250 --> 01:47:21,540
feet

2479
01:47:24,050 --> 01:47:22,260
um

2480
01:47:25,609 --> 01:47:24,060
which is

2481
01:47:27,350 --> 01:47:25,619
to me

2482
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:27,360
both

2483
01:47:31,490 --> 01:47:29,280
a bit terrifying it gives me vertigo to

2484
01:47:33,890 --> 01:47:31,500
think about it yeah yeah I just had some

2485
01:47:36,470 --> 01:47:33,900
of that as well but it's also cool man

2486
01:47:38,090 --> 01:47:36,480
because

2487
01:47:40,729 --> 01:47:38,100
then when you when you think about what

2488
01:47:44,570 --> 01:47:40,739
we are in such a universe you know where

2489
01:47:46,810 --> 01:47:44,580
it's like where the where where this

2490
01:47:49,450 --> 01:47:46,820
layer of emergent complexity that's

2491
01:47:54,770 --> 01:47:49,460
bootstrapped up from nothing

2492
01:47:57,770 --> 01:47:54,780
and you know it's it's now to us to

2493
01:48:00,609 --> 01:47:57,780
explore this uh this this crazy

2494
01:48:04,250 --> 01:48:00,619
phenomenon of reality and and try to

2495
01:48:07,790 --> 01:48:04,260
characterize it as best we can

2496
01:48:11,629 --> 01:48:09,229
um

2497
01:48:15,350 --> 01:48:11,639
you know like the idea there's no ground

2498
01:48:18,530 --> 01:48:15,360
truth there's certainly no fundamental

2499
01:48:20,330 --> 01:48:18,540
meaning uh in that picture there's

2500
01:48:21,770 --> 01:48:20,340
there's only the meaning that we impose

2501
01:48:24,310 --> 01:48:21,780
on it

2502
01:48:29,149 --> 01:48:24,320
um that if you think about

2503
01:48:31,609 --> 01:48:29,159
humans as explorers you know we uh have

2504
01:48:34,609 --> 01:48:31,619
broken free from our bounds

2505
01:48:36,350 --> 01:48:34,619
um on on so many levels and and you know

2506
01:48:38,330 --> 01:48:36,360
for most of our history it was the it

2507
01:48:41,570 --> 01:48:38,340
was physical bounds you know we we

2508
01:48:44,810 --> 01:48:41,580
explored the world okay then we left the

2509
01:48:46,310 --> 01:48:44,820
world and and went to other worlds well

2510
01:48:49,490 --> 01:48:46,320
the moon

2511
01:48:51,470 --> 01:48:49,500
um but with our science we've explored

2512
01:48:54,109 --> 01:48:51,480
the physical Universe to its boundaries

2513
01:48:56,330 --> 01:48:54,119
but there's also there's other type of

2514
01:48:59,510 --> 01:48:56,340
exploration that that you don't think

2515
01:49:01,250 --> 01:48:59,520
about so we we kind of live in these

2516
01:49:03,530 --> 01:49:01,260
day-to-day subjective worlds which are

2517
01:49:06,229 --> 01:49:03,540
these like these mini games that I sort

2518
01:49:08,149 --> 01:49:06,239
of talked about the the idea we just try

2519
01:49:10,669 --> 01:49:08,159
to find the regularities that are

2520
01:49:12,950 --> 01:49:10,679
convenient enough and and those are

2521
01:49:15,109 --> 01:49:12,960
imposed on us by Evolution too like

2522
01:49:17,990 --> 01:49:15,119
where where we

2523
01:49:19,850 --> 01:49:18,000
believe in a world mate where there's

2524
01:49:21,770 --> 01:49:19,860
space and time and hierarchies of

2525
01:49:23,990 --> 01:49:21,780
objects and there are relationships

2526
01:49:25,850 --> 01:49:24,000
between these things forces Etc which is

2527
01:49:29,570 --> 01:49:25,860
just one

2528
01:49:32,270 --> 01:49:29,580
very selective way of casting reality

2529
01:49:34,550 --> 01:49:32,280
but uh but it's also a very natural and

2530
01:49:38,689 --> 01:49:34,560
it's the one that we were born into in

2531
01:49:41,629 --> 01:49:38,699
the same way we're born in a country but

2532
01:49:44,450 --> 01:49:41,639
we have broken free from that bound too

2533
01:49:48,050 --> 01:49:44,460
and we're capable of

2534
01:49:50,990 --> 01:49:48,060
like literally arbitrary abstraction and

2535
01:49:53,209 --> 01:49:51,000
exploring all of the ways to to frame

2536
01:49:55,669 --> 01:49:53,219
reality and and none of them are better

2537
01:50:00,890 --> 01:49:55,679
than any other in terms of more

2538
01:50:03,470 --> 01:50:00,900
fundamental so we're we're we are adrift

2539
01:50:05,510 --> 01:50:03,480
um but which is and and you mentioned

2540
01:50:07,070 --> 01:50:05,520
this earlier but it's a it's really a

2541
01:50:09,669 --> 01:50:07,080
terrifying thing

2542
01:50:12,290 --> 01:50:09,679
you know how how do you

2543
01:50:14,750 --> 01:50:12,300
choose a world view how do you anchor

2544
01:50:16,430 --> 01:50:14,760
yourself down and say right this is my

2545
01:50:19,570 --> 01:50:16,440
world view this is how I'm going to

2546
01:50:24,290 --> 01:50:19,580
interpret everything and and

2547
01:50:26,629 --> 01:50:24,300
choose my actions yeah I would say that

2548
01:50:29,090 --> 01:50:26,639
double down on

2549
01:50:32,149 --> 01:50:29,100
the power of this relativity on the

2550
01:50:33,649 --> 01:50:32,159
power that you have of having cut

2551
01:50:37,669 --> 01:50:33,659
yourself loose

2552
01:50:39,169 --> 01:50:37,679
from these you know these the bonds of

2553
01:50:42,050 --> 01:50:39,179
the framework that you were born into

2554
01:50:43,310 --> 01:50:42,060
your your you know your

2555
01:50:45,950 --> 01:50:43,320
uh

2556
01:50:49,910 --> 01:50:45,960
Surfer impossibility space

2557
01:50:53,330 --> 01:50:49,920
um to me that's actually

2558
01:50:55,129 --> 01:50:53,340
uh something you can

2559
01:50:57,410 --> 01:50:55,139
put an anchor in

2560
01:51:03,890 --> 01:50:59,510
explain that well you can put an anchor

2561
01:51:06,169 --> 01:51:03,900
in the fact that you are in the in

2562
01:51:10,129 --> 01:51:06,179
the the so

2563
01:51:11,510 --> 01:51:10,139
in your in I mean you can take pride in

2564
01:51:13,490 --> 01:51:11,520
your knowledge

2565
01:51:16,129 --> 01:51:13,500
in your ability to

2566
01:51:17,990 --> 01:51:16,139
you know have this meta awareness that

2567
01:51:20,510 --> 01:51:18,000
that

2568
01:51:25,729 --> 01:51:20,520
um a world view

2569
01:51:32,290 --> 01:51:28,010
and and you can see that there are many

2570
01:51:35,149 --> 01:51:32,300
possible World Views and you you know so

2571
01:51:38,330 --> 01:51:35,159
I'm not saying that that I can do this

2572
01:51:41,330 --> 01:51:38,340
but it but I can see that it that this

2573
01:51:41,870 --> 01:51:41,340
could be an admirable

2574
01:51:46,629 --> 01:51:41,880
um

2575
01:51:49,490 --> 01:51:46,639
type of existence is to to see these

2576
01:51:51,530 --> 01:51:49,500
uh these different you know local Minima

2577
01:51:53,870 --> 01:51:51,540
in the landscape each one A different

2578
01:51:56,030 --> 01:51:53,880
belief system and and

2579
01:51:58,490 --> 01:51:56,040
world view and

2580
01:52:00,950 --> 01:51:58,500
idea about what reality is

2581
01:52:03,770 --> 01:52:00,960
um but but knowing the Landscapes there

2582
01:52:05,270 --> 01:52:03,780
and even at some level being free to

2583
01:52:08,390 --> 01:52:05,280
move

2584
01:52:12,890 --> 01:52:10,790
um it's just it's just damn cool man I I

2585
01:52:14,810 --> 01:52:12,900
think it's an increase

2586
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:14,820
foreign

2587
01:52:20,629 --> 01:52:17,040
it's a unique

2588
01:52:22,070 --> 01:52:20,639
um quality of human beings it's what

2589
01:52:25,209 --> 01:52:22,080
makes us

2590
01:52:27,649 --> 01:52:25,219
I think true General intelligences

2591
01:52:31,729 --> 01:52:27,659
although we have we have deep

2592
01:52:33,470 --> 01:52:31,739
constraints and we we have to

2593
01:52:36,770 --> 01:52:33,480
you know fight a lot of our inclinations

2594
01:52:38,870 --> 01:52:36,780
to to do one thing over another in many

2595
01:52:43,129 --> 01:52:38,880
cases we

2596
01:52:44,930 --> 01:52:43,139
uh we still have the capability to to

2597
01:52:46,970 --> 01:52:44,940
uh

2598
01:52:48,649 --> 01:52:46,980
to see all this stock to see all the to

2599
01:52:50,750 --> 01:52:48,659
see all of the different

2600
01:52:56,450 --> 01:52:50,760
Frameworks in which the universe can be

2601
01:53:00,530 --> 01:52:56,460
seen and to in some way explore them

2602
01:53:02,450 --> 01:53:00,540
to Define ourselves and

2603
01:53:04,910 --> 01:53:02,460
um

2604
01:53:06,890 --> 01:53:04,920
yeah I feel like just that that fact it

2605
01:53:18,350 --> 01:53:06,900
is

2606
01:53:19,970 --> 01:53:18,360
called inventing reality so imagine that

2607
01:53:22,310 --> 01:53:19,980
several of the themes we talked about

2608
01:53:24,410 --> 01:53:22,320
will be covered in the film exactly what

2609
01:53:26,810 --> 01:53:24,420
was the impetus behind the film

2610
01:53:28,550 --> 01:53:26,820
so the

2611
01:53:32,750 --> 01:53:28,560
so

2612
01:53:34,010 --> 01:53:32,760
Bahar and I were planning to make a show

2613
01:53:37,250 --> 01:53:34,020
together

2614
01:53:39,830 --> 01:53:37,260
um so she's a science journalist and

2615
01:53:41,510 --> 01:53:39,840
and you know I I'm

2616
01:53:44,030 --> 01:53:41,520
I'm an emerging

2617
01:53:47,689 --> 01:53:44,040
science Communicator

2618
01:53:49,310 --> 01:53:47,699
um and two million subscribers and is

2619
01:53:52,250 --> 01:53:49,320
emerging geez

2620
01:53:55,250 --> 01:53:52,260
well in terms of my skills maybe

2621
01:53:56,810 --> 01:53:55,260
um and so we were planning to make a

2622
01:53:59,149 --> 01:53:56,820
show it was going to be called the

2623
01:54:01,970 --> 01:53:59,159
reality show and it was going to be a

2624
01:54:04,490 --> 01:54:01,980
you know a riff on reality reality TV

2625
01:54:06,830 --> 01:54:04,500
but really oh interesting interesting

2626
01:54:08,870 --> 01:54:06,840
yeah it was going to be a fun way to

2627
01:54:11,390 --> 01:54:08,880
look at how people are exploring the

2628
01:54:13,790 --> 01:54:11,400
nature of reality and this was this was

2629
01:54:15,830 --> 01:54:13,800
like five years ago so when you say you

2630
01:54:18,590 --> 01:54:15,840
were working on a show you mean a show

2631
01:54:21,770 --> 01:54:18,600
like on TV or Netflix or we we you know

2632
01:54:23,930 --> 01:54:21,780
it was we were friends showing many

2633
01:54:25,970 --> 01:54:23,940
things it was maybe going to be a

2634
01:54:27,129 --> 01:54:25,980
YouTube show because that's what I knew

2635
01:54:29,750 --> 01:54:27,139
um

2636
01:54:32,990 --> 01:54:29,760
whatever stuck uh and then we got

2637
01:54:36,169 --> 01:54:33,000
distracted you know I got I got

2638
01:54:37,609 --> 01:54:36,179
um distracted by my research program

2639
01:54:40,189 --> 01:54:37,619
possible to

2640
01:54:41,810 --> 01:54:40,199
to do that and space-time which we can

2641
01:54:43,310 --> 01:54:41,820
talk about next time when we speak which

2642
01:54:45,050 --> 01:54:43,320
is the crisis in cosmology because

2643
01:54:46,490 --> 01:54:45,060
there's so much that I would love to

2644
01:54:48,350 --> 01:54:46,500
know about that

2645
01:54:49,370 --> 01:54:48,360
absolutely

2646
01:54:54,050 --> 01:54:49,380
um

2647
01:54:56,570 --> 01:54:54,060
and uh so so it's it's just that was

2648
01:54:58,930 --> 01:54:56,580
something that we have been talking

2649
01:55:01,970 --> 01:54:58,940
about for a long time and

2650
01:55:06,649 --> 01:55:01,980
and you know also talking about these

2651
01:55:08,990 --> 01:55:06,659
questions and and uh peeking into these

2652
01:55:10,669 --> 01:55:09,000
together but but also on the other side

2653
01:55:13,970 --> 01:55:10,679
with

2654
01:55:16,490 --> 01:55:13,980
um uh Andrew cornhaber and Eric Brown

2655
01:55:18,729 --> 01:55:16,500
who were the producers of space-time

2656
01:55:22,010 --> 01:55:18,739
we've been talking for a long time about

2657
01:55:23,390 --> 01:55:22,020
doing something big

2658
01:55:25,550 --> 01:55:23,400
um in terms of

2659
01:55:29,750 --> 01:55:25,560
reaching

2660
01:55:31,070 --> 01:55:29,760
um a bigger audience and uh you know

2661
01:55:32,270 --> 01:55:31,080
what we would want to say it would be

2662
01:55:34,910 --> 01:55:32,280
your audience

2663
01:55:37,790 --> 01:55:34,920
um and how we can

2664
01:55:41,870 --> 01:55:37,800
just do something

2665
01:55:45,050 --> 01:55:41,880
you know really cool with what what we

2666
01:55:48,770 --> 01:55:45,060
thought was this in this affordance we'd

2667
01:55:50,450 --> 01:55:48,780
we uncovered which is the appetite

2668
01:55:51,410 --> 01:55:50,460
for

2669
01:55:53,689 --> 01:55:51,420
um

2670
01:55:55,250 --> 01:55:53,699
good depth and you know some level of

2671
01:55:58,870 --> 01:55:55,260
authenticity

2672
01:56:03,109 --> 01:55:58,880
um so so these two

2673
01:56:04,250 --> 01:56:03,119
projects merged into this film inventing

2674
01:56:06,410 --> 01:56:04,260
reality

2675
01:56:07,850 --> 01:56:06,420
um and we

2676
01:56:12,290 --> 01:56:07,860
uh

2677
01:56:13,070 --> 01:56:12,300
we were very lucky to have a

2678
01:56:15,530 --> 01:56:13,080
um

2679
01:56:16,550 --> 01:56:15,540
well I guess a a fan of the show but now

2680
01:56:20,030 --> 01:56:16,560
a friend

2681
01:56:21,470 --> 01:56:20,040
um offered to match funds

2682
01:56:25,070 --> 01:56:21,480
um up to four hundred thousand dollars

2683
01:56:26,030 --> 01:56:25,080
actually so we wow great all right time

2684
01:56:36,290 --> 01:56:26,040
to

2685
01:56:40,870 --> 01:56:36,300
um I mean it you know PBS is awesome but

2686
01:56:42,530 --> 01:56:40,880
this this kind of had to be something

2687
01:56:43,330 --> 01:56:42,540
independent

2688
01:56:46,970 --> 01:56:43,340
um

2689
01:56:49,850 --> 01:56:46,980
because we want we wanted absolute

2690
01:56:51,709 --> 01:56:49,860
absolute creative freedom

2691
01:56:53,570 --> 01:56:51,719
they're a great partner for space time

2692
01:56:55,390 --> 01:56:53,580
but we wanted this one it had to be

2693
01:56:59,390 --> 01:56:55,400
absolute creative freedom and we also

2694
01:57:02,810 --> 01:56:59,400
realized that uh that that the appetite

2695
01:57:03,649 --> 01:57:02,820
for this could actually let us fund it

2696
01:57:05,990 --> 01:57:03,659
um

2697
01:57:07,430 --> 01:57:06,000
uh so so that's what we're doing so

2698
01:57:11,390 --> 01:57:07,440
what's the website

2699
01:57:13,669 --> 01:57:11,400
so it's in we're we have a Indiegogo

2700
01:57:16,010 --> 01:57:13,679
crowdfunding Indiegogo if I was to

2701
01:57:18,910 --> 01:57:16,020
search inventing reality it would come

2702
01:57:24,890 --> 01:57:18,920
up sure hope so

2703
01:57:31,129 --> 01:57:28,490
yeah okay I see it I see it I'm not I'm

2704
01:57:32,330 --> 01:57:31,139
going to be donating to this oh good

2705
01:57:34,550 --> 01:57:32,340
thank you

2706
01:57:36,050 --> 01:57:34,560
well I want to see this made

2707
01:57:38,510 --> 01:57:36,060
so

2708
01:57:40,189 --> 01:57:38,520
um we're gonna do our best we're one day

2709
01:57:41,570 --> 01:57:40,199
into the campaign by the time I guess

2710
01:57:43,250 --> 01:57:41,580
this video is out will be a little more

2711
01:57:44,750 --> 01:57:43,260
than that let me read some of this if

2712
01:57:47,030 --> 01:57:44,760
you don't mind because this is

2713
01:57:49,370 --> 01:57:47,040
interesting to the listeners our

2714
01:57:50,810 --> 01:57:49,380
space-time and particles even real hey

2715
01:57:53,629 --> 01:57:50,820
if you thought Donald Hoffman was

2716
01:57:55,850 --> 01:57:53,639
allowing your mind to be untrammeled in

2717
01:57:58,070 --> 01:57:55,860
a positive or negative sense then

2718
01:58:00,109 --> 01:57:58,080
he's uh he's adding particles to this

2719
01:58:02,390 --> 01:58:00,119
makes matte designing particles well

2720
01:58:05,089 --> 01:58:02,400
particles are definitely not real good I

2721
01:58:07,510 --> 01:58:05,099
could tell you that now I gotta I gotta

2722
01:58:10,370 --> 01:58:07,520
drive home and function so

2723
01:58:12,589 --> 01:58:10,380
is reductionism a dead end

2724
01:58:15,589 --> 01:58:12,599
can physics ever hope to find ground

2725
01:58:18,109 --> 01:58:15,599
truth interesting interesting

2726
01:58:20,089 --> 01:58:18,119
so it seems to me like

2727
01:58:22,070 --> 01:58:20,099
even in this conversation of there are

2728
01:58:24,169 --> 01:58:22,080
there may not be ground truths even that

2729
01:58:27,169 --> 01:58:24,179
statement alone maybe a ground truth of

2730
01:58:28,790 --> 01:58:27,179
sorts so it's a it's a such a tricky

2731
01:58:30,290 --> 01:58:28,800
statement to make that there are none

2732
01:58:31,790 --> 01:58:30,300
and that we can say that there are none

2733
01:58:35,510 --> 01:58:31,800
of a certain class so that's why I like

2734
01:58:37,609 --> 01:58:35,520
this yeah yeah there are physics ever

2735
01:58:39,709 --> 01:58:37,619
help to find crowd truth final terms

2736
01:58:41,209 --> 01:58:39,719
also and for people who are fans of the

2737
01:58:43,850 --> 01:58:41,219
toe podcast something I talk about

2738
01:58:46,070 --> 01:58:43,860
frequently is abijnasis which means how

2739
01:58:48,050 --> 01:58:46,080
do you combine basically science has

2740
01:58:50,149 --> 01:58:48,060
evolved it's not it's not the same that

2741
01:58:52,250 --> 01:58:50,159
it was 300 years ago so then the

2742
01:58:54,890 --> 01:58:52,260
question is what is it evolving to and

2743
01:58:57,109 --> 01:58:54,900
can other modes of knowing quote-unquote

2744
01:58:58,850 --> 01:58:57,119
knowing be integrated with science and

2745
01:58:59,830 --> 01:58:58,860
so I call that in a tongue-in-cheek

2746
01:59:02,209 --> 01:58:59,840
manner

2747
01:59:03,350 --> 01:59:02,219
abiginosis which is gnosis of the

2748
01:59:06,290 --> 01:59:03,360
western average

2749
01:59:07,970 --> 01:59:06,300
I forget the root word of the East but

2750
01:59:09,830 --> 01:59:07,980
it's not as if that that's the only two

2751
01:59:12,109 --> 01:59:09,840
maybe there's maybe there's four maybe

2752
01:59:13,490 --> 01:59:12,119
there's five different ways of

2753
01:59:14,930 --> 01:59:13,500
integrating knowledge anyway so if

2754
01:59:16,070 --> 01:59:14,940
you're interested in that can physics

2755
01:59:17,870 --> 01:59:16,080
ever hope to find the ground truth

2756
01:59:19,910 --> 01:59:17,880
that'd be interesting to you what is the

2757
01:59:21,169 --> 01:59:19,920
role of the of the observer in quantum

2758
01:59:22,910 --> 01:59:21,179
mechanics okay that's like a central

2759
01:59:24,890 --> 01:59:22,920
thing this is uh did you what did you do

2760
01:59:27,350 --> 01:59:24,900
man did you just copy all the did you go

2761
01:59:29,270 --> 01:59:27,360
to the toe description and create the

2762
01:59:31,729 --> 01:59:29,280
the ideal movie

2763
01:59:33,589 --> 01:59:31,739
no man we did we just have the same

2764
01:59:35,649 --> 01:59:33,599
Curiosities because

2765
01:59:37,970 --> 01:59:35,659
I know I'm just kidding around man

2766
01:59:40,129 --> 01:59:37,980
yeah yeah exactly these are the

2767
01:59:41,750 --> 01:59:40,139
questions I have a personal question for

2768
01:59:43,490 --> 01:59:41,760
you as you start to investigate this

2769
01:59:46,550 --> 01:59:43,500
further and further do you find that

2770
01:59:47,870 --> 01:59:46,560
you're questioning you've at first we're

2771
01:59:49,729 --> 01:59:47,880
thinking how do I unify quantum

2772
01:59:51,229 --> 01:59:49,739
mechanics or Quantum field Theory with

2773
01:59:52,370 --> 01:59:51,239
gravity it's like okay that's the most

2774
01:59:54,169 --> 01:59:52,380
fundamental question then you get to

2775
01:59:57,050 --> 01:59:54,179
ideas of what the heck does it mean to

2776
01:59:59,570 --> 01:59:57,060
cause what does it mean to be real

2777
02:00:01,490 --> 01:59:59,580
what does it mean to mean do you find

2778
02:00:04,609 --> 02:00:01,500
that that's the case for you it's

2779
02:00:06,770 --> 02:00:04,619
paralyzing but I guess you have to power

2780
02:00:08,750 --> 02:00:06,780
through of course yeah and I think it's

2781
02:00:11,870 --> 02:00:08,760
important

2782
02:00:14,930 --> 02:00:11,880
um I mean the key is once you do that

2783
02:00:18,290 --> 02:00:14,940
staying on track you know you can't

2784
02:00:20,629 --> 02:00:18,300
follow one line of reasoning and

2785
02:00:22,370 --> 02:00:20,639
and well you can follow unloaded

2786
02:00:23,689 --> 02:00:22,380
reasoning and be diverted at every

2787
02:00:24,770 --> 02:00:23,699
definition

2788
02:00:26,450 --> 02:00:24,780
um and

2789
02:00:28,430 --> 02:00:26,460
you know this is what makes Smart people

2790
02:00:31,010 --> 02:00:28,440
smart is they're able to construct these

2791
02:00:35,270 --> 02:00:31,020
These Chains of reasoning and

2792
02:00:38,530 --> 02:00:35,280
you know flag their potential

2793
02:00:41,930 --> 02:00:38,540
you know uncertainties biases

2794
02:00:44,450 --> 02:00:41,940
definitional uh uncertainties along the

2795
02:00:47,330 --> 02:00:44,460
way and then come back and build build

2796
02:00:50,089 --> 02:00:47,340
the the edifice of their understanding

2797
02:00:53,450 --> 02:00:50,099
but it's it's

2798
02:00:56,209 --> 02:00:53,460
it can be really paralyzing for sure

2799
02:00:59,270 --> 02:00:56,219
um what does mean even mean

2800
02:01:01,010 --> 02:00:59,280
I thought that one but now I will here's

2801
02:01:02,810 --> 02:01:01,020
something that I asked Noam Chomsky it's

2802
02:01:04,189 --> 02:01:02,820
a similar question that I asked you is

2803
02:01:05,450 --> 02:01:04,199
that in order to know what something

2804
02:01:07,189 --> 02:01:05,460
means do you have to know what it not

2805
02:01:08,570 --> 02:01:07,199
what it doesn't mean so in order for you

2806
02:01:10,010 --> 02:01:08,580
to understand what a cat is does that

2807
02:01:12,950 --> 02:01:10,020
mean you have to point out instances of

2808
02:01:14,510 --> 02:01:12,960
non-cats he said yes but then to me this

2809
02:01:17,689 --> 02:01:14,520
there's something defeating about that

2810
02:01:19,430 --> 02:01:17,699
and it's defeating in in a in the sense

2811
02:01:20,930 --> 02:01:19,440
that he says we don't have a definition

2812
02:01:22,750 --> 02:01:20,940
of meaning so how are we supposed to

2813
02:01:24,410 --> 02:01:22,760
know if something is meaningless without

2814
02:01:25,430 --> 02:01:24,420
presupposing that you know what meaning

2815
02:01:28,970 --> 02:01:25,440
is

2816
02:01:30,890 --> 02:01:28,980
uh I mean maybe yeah right I mean

2817
02:01:33,709 --> 02:01:30,900
meeting is about

2818
02:01:36,890 --> 02:01:33,719
a correlation between

2819
02:01:40,010 --> 02:01:36,900
two things and in particular between

2820
02:01:48,290 --> 02:01:43,129
you know informational representation

2821
02:01:49,129 --> 02:01:48,300
and the thing itself I suppose

2822
02:01:52,390 --> 02:01:49,139
um

2823
02:01:55,550 --> 02:01:52,400
in in a simple sense you know

2824
02:01:56,330 --> 02:01:55,560
this word means this animal and both of

2825
02:01:57,890 --> 02:01:56,340
them

2826
02:02:00,709 --> 02:01:57,900
have

2827
02:02:03,109 --> 02:02:00,719
some informational correlate in your

2828
02:02:06,770 --> 02:02:03,119
brain uh and so it's the pointers

2829
02:02:08,470 --> 02:02:06,780
between these interesting things right

2830
02:02:10,669 --> 02:02:08,480
um but but I I

2831
02:02:12,770 --> 02:02:10,679
am sure

2832
02:02:14,209 --> 02:02:12,780
that Noam Chomsky has thought all

2833
02:02:16,010 --> 02:02:14,219
through this in a lot of detail and

2834
02:02:18,109 --> 02:02:16,020
means something deeper when he says we

2835
02:02:19,189 --> 02:02:18,119
don't know what meaning means I think

2836
02:02:20,870 --> 02:02:19,199
that's I think it's the case that

2837
02:02:22,370 --> 02:02:20,880
nonchovsky's

2838
02:02:23,390 --> 02:02:22,380
whatever people think about him

2839
02:02:25,490 --> 02:02:23,400
politically

2840
02:02:29,750 --> 02:02:25,500
I think it's absolutely

2841
02:02:33,229 --> 02:02:29,760
sharp like a sharp as a thumbtack at 92.

2842
02:02:36,589 --> 02:02:33,239
sharper than most people are at their

2843
02:02:38,589 --> 02:02:36,599
Prime and he's 92 or 93. I was even

2844
02:02:42,770 --> 02:02:38,599
talking to Terence

2845
02:02:45,229 --> 02:02:42,780
like genius said no no question yeah so

2846
02:02:48,109 --> 02:02:45,239
just as an ending as an ending statement

2847
02:02:49,189 --> 02:02:48,119
there's the hard problem of meaning at

2848
02:02:50,450 --> 02:02:49,199
least this is what I call it there's

2849
02:02:52,010 --> 02:02:50,460
something called the symbol grounding

2850
02:02:53,870 --> 02:02:52,020
problem so you can look this up it's

2851
02:02:55,729 --> 02:02:53,880
sent it means how is it that when we say

2852
02:02:57,589 --> 02:02:55,739
the word pen we mean pen how is that

2853
02:02:59,570 --> 02:02:57,599
word ever how does that word point to a

2854
02:03:02,750 --> 02:02:59,580
pen what does the pointing mean

2855
02:03:05,750 --> 02:03:02,760
that's something that yeah I get much

2856
02:03:08,990 --> 02:03:05,760
attention my feeling is so ultimately it

2857
02:03:11,089 --> 02:03:09,000
has to be to something in your

2858
02:03:13,609 --> 02:03:11,099
you know in your brain or in your

2859
02:03:15,950 --> 02:03:13,619
conscious experience and it's really

2860
02:03:18,229 --> 02:03:15,960
hard to pin down because

2861
02:03:20,330 --> 02:03:18,239
you know what you have a single neuron

2862
02:03:22,669 --> 02:03:20,340
who's firing means you've thought of pen

2863
02:03:24,169 --> 02:03:22,679
that's that itself is not very

2864
02:03:26,510 --> 02:03:24,179
meaningful

2865
02:03:28,390 --> 02:03:26,520
um because the neuron is

2866
02:03:32,270 --> 02:03:28,400
you know

2867
02:03:36,410 --> 02:03:32,280
uh tentacally lipid layer uh structure

2868
02:03:40,430 --> 02:03:36,420
it doesn't mean pen so so the meaning

2869
02:03:41,510 --> 02:03:40,440
has to arise in a different way and I

2870
02:03:43,910 --> 02:03:41,520
think

2871
02:03:44,990 --> 02:03:43,920
the only way to me that makes sense is

2872
02:03:46,810 --> 02:03:45,000
that

2873
02:03:49,669 --> 02:03:46,820
the the

2874
02:03:50,990 --> 02:03:49,679
representation of Penn in in your head

2875
02:03:54,050 --> 02:03:51,000
comes

2876
02:03:57,890 --> 02:03:54,060
has its entire existence in

2877
02:04:02,930 --> 02:03:57,900
the connection of all of the things that

2878
02:04:04,250 --> 02:04:02,940
you relate to penis and and

2879
02:04:06,830 --> 02:04:04,260
um

2880
02:04:09,070 --> 02:04:06,840
you know it's it's function its shape

2881
02:04:11,689 --> 02:04:09,080
and and all of these have have

2882
02:04:15,770 --> 02:04:11,699
representations elsewhere in your head

2883
02:04:19,129 --> 02:04:15,780
and and it's in the combination of these

2884
02:04:20,870 --> 02:04:19,139
that you get the notion of the pen but

2885
02:04:23,390 --> 02:04:20,880
then you ask for each of those other

2886
02:04:25,609 --> 02:04:23,400
things like okay you need you need to

2887
02:04:27,950 --> 02:04:25,619
connect Inc what about ink how does ink

2888
02:04:30,530 --> 02:04:27,960
does income know that itself is also

2889
02:04:33,290 --> 02:04:30,540
this connection of representation so

2890
02:04:36,709 --> 02:04:33,300
once you strip away

2891
02:04:41,570 --> 02:04:36,719
all of those uh representations the pen

2892
02:04:43,689 --> 02:04:41,580
vanishes there isn't even you know a

2893
02:04:47,209 --> 02:04:43,699
a single neuron left where

2894
02:04:50,089 --> 02:04:47,219
that that meant Penn now has no

2895
02:04:52,970 --> 02:04:50,099
qualities that there's nothing and so

2896
02:04:55,669 --> 02:04:52,980
um that's what that's what it feels like

2897
02:04:58,010 --> 02:04:55,679
um which is again uh

2898
02:05:01,970 --> 02:04:58,020
an ungrounding notion

2899
02:05:04,010 --> 02:05:01,980
um that that meaning only exists in the

2900
02:05:07,550 --> 02:05:04,020
relationship between

2901
02:05:09,649 --> 02:05:07,560
the properties that that

2902
02:05:13,910 --> 02:05:09,659
um you know

2903
02:05:15,890 --> 02:05:13,920
yeah so so that's uh my now that word

2904
02:05:17,870 --> 02:05:15,900
ungrounding did you you use that

2905
02:05:19,310 --> 02:05:17,880
purposefully because I called I mean

2906
02:05:21,290 --> 02:05:19,320
because I referenced the symbol

2907
02:05:22,490 --> 02:05:21,300
grounding problem or did you just use

2908
02:05:24,950 --> 02:05:22,500
that word

2909
02:05:27,350 --> 02:05:24,960
uh I didn't mean to copy you but no no

2910
02:05:30,229 --> 02:05:27,360
it's not copying me it's actually the

2911
02:05:31,910 --> 02:05:30,239
word that is appropriate and and but

2912
02:05:34,070 --> 02:05:31,920
it's there's also a technical meaning of

2913
02:05:35,209 --> 02:05:34,080
that word and the conversation with

2914
02:05:37,310 --> 02:05:35,219
Terence Deacon which is actually

2915
02:05:39,890 --> 02:05:37,320
premiering in about an hour or so talk

2916
02:05:42,709 --> 02:05:39,900
specifically about that it's difficult

2917
02:05:45,050 --> 02:05:42,719
to say what grounding is but he and does

2918
02:05:46,729 --> 02:05:45,060
it mean in that context grounding to

2919
02:05:50,030 --> 02:05:46,739
some kind of

2920
02:05:52,310 --> 02:05:50,040
your neurostructure or a neurocarily

2921
02:05:54,589 --> 02:05:52,320
as far as I understand

2922
02:05:57,830 --> 02:05:54,599
grounding is

2923
02:06:00,290 --> 02:05:57,840
something physical and so what's meant

2924
02:06:01,729 --> 02:06:00,300
by the word pen is ungrounded is that

2925
02:06:04,250 --> 02:06:01,739
there's nothing that you can see from

2926
02:06:06,589 --> 02:06:04,260
the symbols of the word pen that grounds

2927
02:06:08,209 --> 02:06:06,599
it to the word pen but it has something

2928
02:06:11,149 --> 02:06:08,219
to do with it being grounded in

2929
02:06:14,030 --> 02:06:11,159
something physical Matt

2930
02:06:16,870 --> 02:06:14,040
thank you thank you so much man listen

2931
02:06:20,089 --> 02:06:16,880
because it was an absolute pleasure and

2932
02:06:22,609 --> 02:06:20,099
based on who you've had on this podcast

2933
02:06:24,890 --> 02:06:22,619
and and the brilliant conversations

2934
02:06:27,709 --> 02:06:24,900
you've managed to get out of them also

2935
02:06:28,790 --> 02:06:27,719
which is no mean feat um it's an honor

2936
02:06:31,189 --> 02:06:28,800
so

2937
02:06:33,109 --> 02:06:31,199
an honors mine then like I but I've been

2938
02:06:35,770 --> 02:06:33,119
watching you for years I I watch you

2939
02:06:40,310 --> 02:06:35,780
guys I go to sleep that sounds creepy

2940
02:06:41,870 --> 02:06:40,320
I'll watch it before yeah and and so

2941
02:06:44,450 --> 02:06:41,880
it's and I've been doing that for years

2942
02:06:46,669 --> 02:06:44,460
and and I learned from you and several

2943
02:06:48,770 --> 02:06:46,679
met perhaps the majority of the audience

2944
02:06:51,649 --> 02:06:48,780
has plenty to credit to you in terms of

2945
02:06:54,830 --> 02:06:51,659
their knowledge so thank you

2946
02:06:58,129 --> 02:06:54,840
well I I was just communicating it so

2947
02:07:00,109 --> 02:06:58,139
glad I got some across the podcast is

2948
02:07:01,550 --> 02:07:00,119
now concluded thank you for watching if

2949
02:07:03,229 --> 02:07:01,560
you haven't subscribed or clicked on

2950
02:07:06,290 --> 02:07:03,239
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2951
02:07:08,570 --> 02:07:06,300
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2952
02:07:10,669 --> 02:07:08,580
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2953
02:07:12,830 --> 02:07:10,679
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2954
02:07:14,810 --> 02:07:12,840
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2955
02:07:17,629 --> 02:07:14,820
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2956
02:07:19,790 --> 02:07:17,639
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2957
02:07:21,649 --> 02:07:19,800
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2958
02:07:23,689 --> 02:07:21,659
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2959
02:07:25,550 --> 02:07:23,699
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2960
02:07:27,229 --> 02:07:25,560
Distribution on YouTube as well if you'd

2961
02:07:29,530 --> 02:07:27,239
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2962
02:07:31,609 --> 02:07:29,540
this then do consider visiting

2963
02:07:33,830 --> 02:07:31,619
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2964
02:07:36,290 --> 02:07:33,840
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2965
02:07:37,970 --> 02:07:36,300
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2966
02:07:40,070 --> 02:07:37,980
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02:07:42,169 --> 02:07:40,080
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